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Desc:He is against it.
Category:Classic Movies, News & Politics
Tags:documentary, porn, noam chomsky, slavery, choice?
Submitted:kamlem
Date:11/15/11
Views:2926
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Comment count is 55
muffinbutt
I hate it when porn studios burn down, the smell of burning silicone clings to your clothes for weeks.
Aelric
I like Noam, and he has a point in regards to some facets of pornography, however the objectification of the human body is something intrinsic in all cultures, be it pornographic or otherwise. What would he say to burlesque, however? Or artistic depictions of female nudity? What would he say about a woman who's job it to pose nude for art students? His argument is too simplistic, though this was a 3 minute clip and if allowed to expand, perhaps he could build a stronger case.
kamlem
I would like to know his position on gay porn. Pornography will always be controversial in that it is easily exploitable by both the pornographer and government enforcement if they are inclined to do so (see the documentary "Graphic Sexual Horror" for a perfect example), but I wasn't really sold on his women in pornography are like sweatshop kids that die in a fire analogy.

craptacular
The objectification of women in all cultures is a holdover from our less-civilized days, I mean all that objectification is doing is promoting one gender (men) over the other (women) by saying that the standard of beauty is a woman, from a man's perspective. It's this perspective that's the problem.
Artistic nudes express art techniques, the style of the times, etc. Modern pornography is objectification and degradation of the woman for a purely erotic sense. You didn't think about this too hard did you?

As for kamlem's gay porn question, I'd like to know that also. He's probably against it... but why

Cena_mark
The spread of women's rights correlates with the spread of pornography. When a society gives up on the prudish old fashioned beliefs that prohibit porn, it also gives up the old fashioned beliefs that hold women to traditional roles.
Compare the availability of porn and the freedoms of women in Saudi Arabia to that of western societies.

Cherry Pop Culture
As much as women in western societies have more freedoms, will still do not have the right to not be harmed. There is still a need for shelters and crisis hot-lines. There have been times my close female friends have told me they were gang raped. I have the right to vote, but violent criminals still exist and think they have the right to another person's body.

Aelric
Craptacular,

I did think about what I said and I still hold this viewpoint. You playing that little game,set, match quip doesn't make you auto-win an argument, so I'd lose the habit before you run afoul of one of your more reasonable professors.


Mind you, I said the human body, but just women. I also see nothing wrong with enjoying, yes even to the point of masturbation, the human body. Pornography is said to have psychological roots in domination. Sure, I could see that. The fantasy of power over another person may be the driving force behind such a desire yo consume porn. Same could be said of depictions of violence in movies, TV, games and books, same could be said about things that are actually lifestyle choices. But it comes down to fantasy, something that no one can be begrudged for. On a philosophical level, I not only have no problem with porn, I wholly support it as an outlet of those fantasies. I'd go as far as to say that it's existence prevents some people from performing unkind and illegal acts on domination on others, such as but not limited to rape, which is usually more about domination than sex anyway.

On practical level, I think the the porn industry has it's faults. I know that it's checkered past and likely aspects of it's present make some women feel worthless or trapped in the industry. I mean, hell, most that get out go to god, suggesting some permanent form of psychological damage to go from one form of submission to another. However, the industry, largely due to fairly strict government observation, have reformed itself quite a bit and all girls are fully aware that if they want out, the door is right there.

Perhaps your argument lies in the treatment of women in the videos themselves, which I would likely agree with you on. Every time I stumble across something that has constant streams of degrading profanity it severely turns me off and I wonder who it's for. Same when I come across some of the more extreme acts. But that said, there are plenty of outlets that feature loving "couples" (at least in-character) and some that are straight up silent sex with no frill or gimmicks. The depiction of sex itself is no more that the documentation of a non-violent cooperative act between two or more people. There is nothing inherently wrong with either the recording of this act, or the enjoyment of viewing the recording so long as privacy isn't being violated. You real problem seems more likely with and simulation BEYOND that act of sex. Unless you are trying the make the Andrea Dworkin argument and posit that all heterosexual acts are rape or simulated rape regardless of intent.

Cena_mark
Orange Soda Culture, you can blame that on culture or pornography, I blame it on evolution. In our species men are physically stronger, that's just how it is.

Aelric
Shut the fuck up, cena, or I'll switch my arguments just so people don't think I'm with you.

Cena_mark
Also Orange Soda, consider that women are victimized less in the west than they are in the Muslim world. Porn is the product of a progressive society, societies that accept their humanity.

Aelric, nothing wrong with being on the side of reason for a change. Roll with it.

Aelric
You just used evolution itself as a justification for violence towards women, man? Men are stronger, so it's just the way it is. That is not reason, that is glib approval of serious crimes.

Porn is indeed the product of greater social liberties, such as free speech, which I feel does need to be absolutely free, from gay pride to kkk. That's why cena is still able to talk, even if he really shouldn't.

Aelric
Er, that was supposed to be "men are stronger so that's just the way it is?" note the questionmark.

cognitivedissonance
I no longer need pornography, I jerk it to Cena's posts.

baleen
I hate Noam Chomsky and have for the past decade. One more reason to find this man completely irrelevant.

Cena_mark
You misread me Aelric. I'm not using evolution to justify violence against women, just to explain it. You have a man and a women in an abusive relationship, who is more likely to violently attack the other? The one who's stronger.
Of course violence of any sorts is awful, there will always be violence, there will always be strong assholes who pick on the weak thus there will always be violence against women.
Of course there are exceptions, I've heard of women who violently abuse their men, but most domestic violence the female is the victim.

Senator_Unger
"I'd never heard of The Hustler!" Really?
FreeOJ
I find it difficult to believe Noam never once indulged in pornography

Meerkat
Whether he indulged or not it's pretty hard to believe he'd never heard of it. The guy is supposedly knowledgeable about things, it would be like never hearing of Indonesia or Indoor Plumbing or Airplanes and yet holding forth about asians or waste disposal or travel.

Senator_Unger
Honestly, one of the landmark Supreme Court cases involving First Amendment rights involved Hustler Magazine and Jerry Falwell.

fatatty
I think you guys give Hustler too much credit. Playboy is certainly a household name, but Hustler not so much.

And this is a man who spends a lot of his time in other countries and on the lecture circuit and thinking about genocide and war. I doubt he takes the time to peruse the porn section of magazine racks, especially considering his stance on porn.

And just because your part of Academia doesn't mean you pay attention to every Supreme Court case ever.

Caminante Nocturno
Why he (allegedly) doesn't know about Hustler is irrelevant to the fact that he said something stupid in this video.

Cena_mark
He's so damned liberal he can't even enjoy porn. What an overly P.C. douche.
La Loco
You're actually right, "Those states that do consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-co nservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html

Sudan no1
Conservatives also consume the most porn because they aren't smart enough to get it on the internet for free.

baleen
Oh cena, stop embarrassing yourself you dumb hick.

Cena_mark
What? Everyone disagrees with Gnome Chompsdick. Porn has been around since the Venus of Willendorf, probably even predating it. It'll always be around and this little socialist gnome wants to hate on it?

charmlessman
How very provincial of you, Noam.
Riskbreaker
Masturbation is an objectification of our poor genitalia, THEY DESERVE BETTER DAMMIT
Cherry Pop Culture
I don't care, I (heart) Noam Chomsky!

When I saw the title, I knew plenty of men (and women!) wouldn't like it. It would mean they would have to see another side to consumerism, THEIR consumerism and have to take a look inward. The greatest weapon against humanity is not a bullet or a bomb, but by a reflection in the mirror.
Caminante Nocturno
I find intellectual masturbation to be pornographic.

Cherry Pop Culture
One person's porn is another person's erotica :D

Aelric
I like Noam a lot too and in the end, it's no surprise that he would hold this view, considering his considers almost everyone to be victims of a false middle class that never existed, exploited from birth to death. And he is actually right about that part, at least mostly.

Also, Universal Grammar!

poorwill
'Consumerism' ... ahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Like I'd ever pay for porn.

Rafiki
Just got done checkin out the greatest weapon against humanity in the mirror. Damn, it's a big one.

Caminante Nocturno
Comparing the things that offend you to actual, real-world problems is a great way to tell people that you shouldn't be taken seriously.
Xenocide
Nacho Cheese Doritos taste bad. Much like genocide.

Xenocide
"It's like child abuse."

It's amazing how often anti-porn crusaders end up reducing grown women to the level of children in their arguments. Noam does it twice here in three minutes. Because for the "porn always exploits women" argument to work, you need to reduce women to beings too ignorant to make decisions for themselves, like children. Or puppies. You need to believe that any woman who fucks in front of a camera for money is a victim, regardless of any other factors, and the fact that in almost all cases she is a willing participant is irrelevant.

It's an amazing bit of double-think, because in many cases these are people who will argue passionately and intelligently in favor of the equality of women in every other aspect of life.

Porn exploits people, men AND women. And it empowers other people, men and women, and allows them to make a living on their own terms. It's really not so different from any other industry that way.


Cherry Pop Culture
My problem isn't porn or money or trying to make a living and doing it your way. The problem in Industry; the system itself.

We have had hierarchy in this country since the beginning, and we are still trying to recover from it and move on together. But the road blocks called greed and lack of empathy feed itself and makes it hard to change.

Some people are so privileged, they don't even see it! That's what this country needs to get rid of. How soon? Not soon enough.

Hooker
"The problem is the industry" gets thrown around a lot. Is there anything to back that up? Why don't we compare it against the American football industry, which promotes unhealthy weight gain, dangerous drug abuse, has sparked public riots, etc. Or we can compare it to the retail industry, which has demonstrated wage slavery, poor standards of employment benefits, often inflexible working hours that work as a barrier to social mobility, etc. Why is porn so vastly worse than other industries?

poorwill
I am pretty sure Noam Chomsky hates those too.

Riskbreaker
That and the idea that two people having sex makes the whole thing a "superficial" affair by default. How do you not "objectify" sex on screen then? You have to film the whole thing with candles, and satin sheets and the couple having dinner before they fuck?

Cherry Pop Culture
Re Hooker:

I meant 'Industry' in general. Your points bringing up sports and retail are completely valid. All of that needs to go the fuck away. It is self-destructive and puts us all in small boxes when humans are more fluid than that. Retail is just as degrading; you are a piece of meat meant for others to consume and you are a 'thing' that gets their share of abuse. For every porn studio or supermarket that treats it's workers well, there is another that is inhumane.


Hay Belly
Totally agree with you Xeno. Even in the US, where most people think they're free women still don't have the same rights as men. What's the difference between being forced to cover your hair or face and being forced to cover your breasts? Everything is male-oriented.

poorwill
"puts us all in small boxes when humans are more fluid than that"

Thats what she ... I can't finish.

poorwill
" I can't finish"

That's what she said.

Ok I'll stop now.

Caminante Nocturno
"Ok I'll stop now."

That's what he DIDN'T say!

>:(

Hank Friendly
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Riskbreaker
Are we suppose to write another letter saying goodbye to porn? We already did that.
Gojira1000
Too old to wank. Bitter about it.

Five for the poorly thought out argument
memedumpster
I did NOT need to see the words "Noam Chomsky" and "pornography" next to each other. I think that officially made me non-sexual.
EvilHomer
Gosh, what a surprise. Chomsky doesn't like something that decent, normal, sane people enjoy. Didn't see that coming!

How much longer until he dies and/or has his tenure revoked?
Caminante Nocturno
How dare you try to be happy when there are things to be offended by?

EvilHomer
Some people asked what he'd think of gay porn. I, for one, want to hear his views on tentacle rape.

I bet tentacle rape is a mechanism by which the neoliberal cultural elites exploit animated women and maintain the capitalist-imperialist status quo within our institutions of higher learning; after all, if autistic college nerds are spending their evenings watching Sailor Moon getting ravished by monsters, they can't very well be spending their evenings doing PRODUCTIVE things, like openly questioning Israel's role in the international distribution of lolicon mangas. In fact, it's a matter of historical record (as shown in non-biased Soviet sources) that the atrocities committed by US military personnel in the Philippines were in a large part spurred on by the American's racist view of Asian schoolgirls as nothing more than "rape targets", a view learned through and reinforced by the steady diet of perverse Japanese hentai being fed to them by the mass media. Anyone who bothers to look at the matter objectively can clearly see that this is the case.

And by golly, the Khmer Rouge never had those problems!

John Holmes Motherfucker
Fuck you, Noam Chomsky, for the two semesters i struggled with the theory of transformational grammar!
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