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Desc:President of the National Organization for Marriage and the writer of the Savage Love column chat
Category:News & Politics, Horror
Tags:Bible, gay marriage, New York Times, dan savage, brian brown
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Comment count is 21
augias - 2012-08-22
That was painful to watch, in that it reminds me of every conversation I've had with a conservative ever about anything. Thanks Jangbones.
jangbones - 2012-08-22
Yes, I watched every minute of this, and I could not stop thinking what a complete waste of time it is.

Xenocide - 2012-08-23
Brown seems to be audibly smacking his hand on the table in frustration at 01:03:26 when Savage says "same sex marriage does no harm."

Also, I love that Brown wants to move toward a society where divorce is incredibly difficult and people are penalized for it. You want to destroy marriage overnight in this country, tell folks that it's going to be near-impossible to get out of it. Suddenly lifelong cohabitation becomes the new normal.

rroach - 2012-08-23
Brian Brown was frothing at the mouth at one point. Crazy.

And as much as I hate to say it, but the moderator opined way too much. I agree with everything he said, but he's not suppose to support one side or another.
misterbuns - 2012-08-23
It's because Brown didn't understand the specifics of the conjecture. It was like he thought what was in question here was what specifically he believed according to his religion, prejudice: whatever. He spent very little time talking about why any of that should effect other americans through public policy.

misterbuns - 2012-08-23
i mean his final argument at the end was ' same sex marriage shouldnt be illegal because if its not people will make fun of me and that isn't fair.'

misterbuns - 2012-08-23
er *should be illegal

rroach - 2012-08-23
Doesn't matter. The moderator isn't there to point out flaws in someone's argument. He's there to keep track of time, prevent things from spilling over and to hush people when they get upset. He's not suppose to be the official Jew in the room.

misterbuns - 2012-08-23
Brown kept watering down his time with personal conjecture. No one is arguing about what this guy believes or what Catholic doctrine is. The moderator was trying to relate his ranting to the issue and facilitate an understanding of what actually being argued and why. He had to get pretty heavy handed, but I'd say that's because Brown didnt understand what they were debating on a fundamental level.

rroach - 2012-08-23
Dan Savage's point was what was okay from the Old Testament and was not okay seemed arbitrary. Brian Brown talked about the meeting at Jerusalem deciding what was okay, and what was not. The moderator, I can't forget his name, jumps in to say that as a Jew, he can't understand WHY they decided what was okay, and what was not. He sided with Dan Savage on a pretty key point by interjecting with his statement.

Brian Brown thought that this holy meeting was critical in deciding morality, particularly homosexuality. Saying that homosexuality is still wrong by statements in the New Testament is a big speaking point for conservative Christians. He was making that point.

Dan Savage did a great job in his defense, but he did let the arbitrary decisions of the Jerusalem go by and the moderator decided to interject. If Brian Brown wanted to go on about Batman and My Little Pony to defend traditional marriage, he's free to do so. And yes, Brian Brown was grasping for straws towards the last half, and what the moderator said was a good and logical point. But it's still not the job of the moderator to temper the arguments of the debaters. It's up to the opposing side to see the flaws and run with them. Poor moderation will only make it look like poor Brian Brown is being ganged up on by the sodomite and Jew liberals.

misterbuns - 2012-08-23
Ill agree that Openjewmier's interjection about The Council of Nicea or whatever could be interpreted as partial, but it could also be interpreted as an effort to clarify a point savage had already made that hadn't penetrated Brown's cloud of talking points and was preventing the discourse from moving forward. Brown insisted on diverting the focus of the debate away from the issue of public policy.

But really, other than that one comment Openhiemer did nothing more than force Brown to phrase his arguments without fluffing them up with bromides and jingoism, which I'd say, given his evasion of the prompt was pretty much his job as moderator. Yes, Brown handled this poorly and sounded confused and irrational, but that's his own fault for bringing nothing but personal feelings to a debate about public policy.

Also this was a pretty informal debate so who cares?

Old_Zircon - 2012-08-23
What mistebuns said.

Old_Zircon - 2012-08-23
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Xenocide - 2012-08-23
Brian just keeps doubling down on the "BUT POLYGAMY" argument, and then goes even further in on the ill-defined, nonsensical and absurd "Two halves of humanity" bit. He keeps saying "there's something special" about bringing men and women together, but never seems able to tell us what that something is.
Deplorable - 2012-08-23
At around 56 this guy says, "I am an unmoving rock with rocks in my head, begging for liberation."
Innocent Bystander - 2012-08-23
Gotta write this somewhere, just to get it out of my system: I hate hate hate that whole "there's two ideas on the table, and there's only room for one" and "you can call a dog a cat, but it won't make it a cat"-rhetoric. Marriage is not like a real-life, actual object you can see, touch and measure. It's an idea, an abstract concept. You can draw a picture of a dog or a cat. You cannot draw a picture of marriage (you can draw a picture of a wedding, sure), just like you can't draw a picture of morality, law, justice, love, hate etc. And ideas exist only in the way that they are commonly agreed upon. They are always changing and infinitely malleable.

Also: Christianity does not have a monopoly on marriage and the concept of marriage has not been the union of a man and woman since forever around the world (I choose not to cite sources because Brown doesn't).

Also 2: Even if Christianity had the monopoly on marriage, civil union is not marriage. That would not be changing a dog into a cat, that would be introducing an entirely new, different thing, a squirrel of some sort I expect.

Also 3: What a pigheaded, intellectually dishonest shit.
Corpus Delectable - 2012-08-23
My main disagreement with you is that "civil unions" really are marriages. If certain religious types are going to get all pissy and say that God only recognizes heterosexual marriages, I'm going to point out to them that there's nearly no justification for that. I'm also going to point out that when the Bible talks about God loving marriage or marriage being sacred, what is being said is that when God sees a marriage, heterosexual or same-sex, God finds it pleasing in His sight.

I won't get behind separate but equal categories of marriage just to appease some bigots.

Innocent Bystander - 2012-08-24
Actually I would say that defining marriage from a religious point of view is tricky and out of the scope of this discussion. I would even say that Christian churches have a right to refuse same sex marriage ceremonies. To call same-sex marriage "civil union" (or something) would contain the discussion in the right sphere (marriage as policy, not religious ritual).

memedumpster - 2012-08-23
Watching Dan Savage try and raise a grown man to adulthood where their parents, society, church, and history have failed is excruciatingly painful.

He is the Golden Verses of Pythagoras Father of the Year here.
Old People - 2012-08-23
Surprisingly, the Republican is fat.
SchlongChimp - 2012-08-23
He literally was frothing @41:15-ish
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