Toenails "Studies suggest [Jack] is just as likely to experience domestic violence or rape."
I can't quite dispute the first allegation , but I sure as hell can dispute the second one.
Woman: You're going to have sex with me right now whether you like or not.
Man: El oh el. I'll talk to you tomorrow. *leaves house*
John Holmes Motherfucker I'm going to try to explain Men's Rights versus Feminism, using words, instead of magnets, and I feel like I'm going to get it wrong somehow, and I'm going to go on for a long time. You may not want to read this.
Watching this has convinced me that Alison is smart. Her abstract reasoning skills are indeed impressive. But she really doesn't address the root cause of the conflict between feminists and MRAs. All of this stuff about strength and victims, and victim classes doesn't really address the issue, does it? I mean, WHY is Jill hitting Jack? She shouldn't do that. Is there really an epidemic of chick on dude violence going on out there, and is that what this is all about?
Not that there aren't men somewhere getting beat up by women, and afraid to talk about it, but associating feminism with man battering is just retar... counterproductive. If you read enough internet comments, you get the sense that most of these guys are upset because they believe feminism has made it more difficult to get laid, because it's given the women all the power in the relationship, and maybe it has.
Women used to be brought up to need men, not only for social reasons, but for economic reasons. There was a real stink of failure around being stuck an "old maid". You used to hear the expression a lot back then, along with other sexist terms like "women driver" that don't even mean anything anymore.
There has been, of course, a huge increase of women in the workforce in just a generation ot two, That can be seen as a triumph of feminism, but it wouldn’t have happened so quickly if hadn't been made to order for the labour needs of our corporate overlords. So, in some ways things have worked out in the feminist's favor. Not that they didn't deserve a break.
Between the economic changes, and the social changes of the past 50 years, women are now. They're not that desperate.
But the men? Still desperate. Women were once taught that they're not really women if they're not in a relationship. Men aren't really men if they're not having sex, and the sexual relationship is a socially acceptable place to have an intimate emotional connection. The programming is hard to unlearn, and I myself have never gotten past it. I know you all think that I want to fuck Boxxy, but as much as I admire the strong, adventurous women that are coming of age now I'm frankly relieved that I'm not expected to mate with them. The thought terrifies me. They would make a fool of me every time.
Women my own age are enough of a challenge. I've given up on dating these past ten years, largely because even when I finally stopped feeling desperate and needy in relationships, I kept ACTING needy, because I didn't know another way to act, The only way I know to not be desperate is to be alone, and I'm sort of content. I've mostly been a failure in love, but I'm on good terms with every last one of my exes, and a couple of my exes are close friends, and that's my success. I look at the men I see who hate their ex-wives, and I'd rather be me.
The whole thing about women being attracted to guys who are macho bastards, and spurning nice nice guys is mostly bullshit, but guys like that know how they're going to act, so they tend to do better than a confused mangina like myself. How to treat women and be a man in the time I was born into has been confusing. Feminism has not make my life easier, but I still call myself a feminist, because I believe in the future.
For men, the problem isn't feminism, it's the work that feminism has left undone. We need a men's movement that will do for us what feminism did for women, to make us independent and self sustaining. We're not going to get that by trying to change women.
I can understand some of the complaints. If you're working on Wall Street, or sitting on the board of a major corporation, the words "male privilege" probably apply to you, but you may not want to hear it if you're working at Starbucks with student loans and no health insurance (maybe Starbucks has health insurance, how would I know?) and you can't even get a girlfriend, and the assistant manager is a woman, and she's your your boss.. On the other hand, "rape culture" is real, and the internet pushes it forward. Back in 2010, Boxxy used to get rape threats posted on her youtube channel roughly 8-12. ("I would shut her up with my dicjk in her mouth") There were rape threats against Boxxy posted on this site. Rape culture, which defines any 15 year old girl who posts on youtube as "a camwhore" is not the mainstream culture, but it's pervasive on the internet. Not every man contributes, but every woman is subject.
The anti-feminist men's movement is suspect. You know that the the virulent hatred against Barak Obama that you see on the internet is sometimes racism,, sometimes just the same angry partisan fervor that the Republicans had against Clinton. Like wise you know there's a lot of real misogyny out there among the MRAs, but they'll be shocked, SHOCKED if you accuse them, and it's just a waste of time and effort. More to the point, the anti-feminist Men's movement isn't going to accomplish anything, except make it socially acceptable (on a little corner of the internet, if not IRL) to complain about women all the livelong day, but as far as accomplishing social change, these activists are choosing the path of most resistance, and that's just dumb.. There no unringing that bell.
Coax_Current Alison is not a stupid broad. This is not sinister reasoning on her part. There is nothing wrong with this woman's attempts to make sense of society. I find her courageous, but I do worry about her allowing herself to be labelled with anything MR. I understand she wants to show her support, show that she thinks there are legitimate grievances that are being dismissed, but I think she should have remained impartial.
Men should be treated compassionately, too. So should women. So should people of any intersectionality. As these movements polarize, their banner-bearers show no empathy, nor do their militia. Empathy to comrades only. Empathy to conspecifics only.
Men expressing their frustration at feeling that they are unfairly treated feel the further frustration of feeling they're denied a voice. This is where the a lot of the anger comes from.
Power is a zero sum game. In basic terms, it would seem women gaining power would mean men losing power. And these men feel powerless enough as it is.
If we drop all talk about identity and legitimacy of complaint and look at the distribution power, I think it's pretty obvious the MR's vs Feminism (internets edition or otherwise) is trivial. This is a big internet scuffle over power that neither actually have. The scuffle won't empower anyone. It can't.
John Holmes Motherfucker >If we drop all talk about identity and legitimacy of complaint and look at the distribution power, I think it's pretty obvious the MR's vs Feminism (internets edition or otherwise) is trivial. This is a big internet scuffle over power that neither actually have. The scuffle won't empower anyone. It can't.
Yes, and that's what wrong with Allison's reason. Not sinister, just misguided.
If Jill hits Jack, everything I have experienced-- mostly thousands of hours of TV,, tells me that he's not going to seriously injure him, and that's why I don't think about Jack as a victim.
John Holmes Motherfucker If there are guys who are really getting beaten on by women, we ashould maker it easy for them top come forward.
baleen I've been in an woman-on-man "abusive" relationship but it was from a woman who had been raped 3 times. I have been raped zero times. She never "hit" me per se because if I had ever hit her, her skull would probably go mach 3 through a piece of drywall.
So you know, I wonder what Alison would have to say about that.
Coax_Current I appreciate your candor in your original post. I just wanted to clarify a few things in your followup.
In most major cities, if you ride public transit enough, you will eventually see a smaller man with a larger woman who pretty obviously abuses him. And by obviously I mean her body language is one of dominance, and she talks to him like he's trash, and you can tell he's scared. You might even see her elbow him or slap him upside the head.
I don't think Alison's point is that men being abused is an epidemic, it's that she wants people to recognize bias in moral judgments that stem from gender bias. "How easy is it for you to see Jill as a victim? How hard is it for you to see Jack as vulnerable?" she asks. She's asking us to catch ourselves, to question our effortless intuitions.
Everyone has those assumptions hidden in their instant, effortless judgment. And not just with gender, of course, but also race, profession, etc. This is well known in moral psychology. People tend to make moral judgments on the most salient factors, not the most relevant ones.
I had never heard of this woman before this video, and did a little digging. Apparently the catalyst for her going public with these sorts of videos was the suicide of a man who ran a battered men shelter in Canada. When he couldn't get any more funding he shut it down and hanged himself.
So really battered men are another minority failed by crumbling social infrastructure (just a slightly more hidden one).
Good thing someone posted that video of grinding robots or I'd be completely depressed.
baleen But one of the things about contemporary gender studies is that we examine all the ways that men are considered weak, and strong, it's far more egalitarian than it once was. She may be speaking to a particular branch of "feminism," but she doesn't quite make clear who this is a dialog with.
Many "feminists" I've talked to would agree that men are not allowed to be victims and yet they are victims of so much, they are victims, most of all, of having to be the emotionless strong ones.
To suggest that women and men are on the same level in terms of being victims of sexual violence and objectification is certifiably insane. I'd like to see any studies that back this up, please.
magnesium There's no question that men need more protection from domestic violence and mental health support. But MRA's, when they bother to do anything at all, do lots of harm and almost no good.
Alison here is part of an organization that is dedicated to hurting women, even if it hurts men in the process. When a sexual assault centre in Edmonton Alberta put up anti-rape posters (they said "Don't be that Guy", with photos of say, a passed out woman or other such things), her organization got upset. Did they make a poster that admonished sexually aggressive women? Lol no. They published the name/address/phone number of the head of the sexual assault centre and harassed her and the centre. This is the only centre in that area that has support groups for male sexual assault survivors. But fuck 'em if they're in the line of fire of hurting a feminazi.
That same organization boasts taking in donations, often from desperate, unemployed men, of up to ,000 a year. Where does that money go? Well, some to pay the bills of the leader of the website and the people who write for it. They've never contributed to any charitable effort. But the leader has occasionally admonished men for asking them for support after not making financial contributions.
Alison is also famous for constantly arguing that being a white man in America is literally the same as slavery.
If you genuinely want to help men, I would recommend checking out your local domestic violence and sexual assault centres to see if they have male-specific programs. If they do, volunteer or donate. If they don't, offer to help them set something up. Or, if you're looking for something more international, I'm a big fan of Just Detention. While prison rape happens to male and female prisoners, there are many more men in prisons, and Just Detention is working to help these men, and end the violence against them that is so often excused.
SteamPoweredKleenex "In most major cities, if you ride public transit enough, you will eventually see a smaller man with a larger woman who pretty obviously abuses him. And by obviously I mean her body language is one of dominance, and she talks to him like he's trash, and you can tell he's scared. You might even see her elbow him or slap him upside the head."
You might even see someone projecting their biases onto 5 minutes of two people's lives with no context whatsoever.
At least you're not under the belief you're being gangstalked.
magnesium: I don't see this as a veiled attempt to drum up support for MR, and I don't see enough evidence to be willing to dismiss a good faith assumption that she's being compassionate here. I'm not interested in ad hominem-ing her . You can consider it silly for me to approach the video in a fairly naive way, but that's what I'm doing. I don't get a strong whiff of rhetoric from the video.
I don't think well of MR. I think there are men who identify with it that are ok people, though. Maybe not great people, but ok people. Some are "jack conservatives," and as you imply, they're being used by MR, but with some culpability. They hope MR will give them voice. As they mature they become increasingly unreachable. I figured it was a given that MR didn't do much to help anyone, and that most views generally associated with it by actual adherents were, at best, boneheaded.
I tend to focus my contributions on kids and teens, but I appreciate your suggestion of Just Detention.
baleen: My hope is that an increasing amount of "critical studies" gets real about behavioral science. The most accessible door--anthropology--is there and people are sneaking in. For solid, predictive theories you need more than a lavish tourist map written in foucaltese.
JHM: I'm mostly going on what few snippets I've seen. I'm sure she's said some dumb things, as we all have, and I'm sure we could tear all of it apart. I just thought, from what little I have seen, that's she's being compassionate, not contrary to be contrary, and not sneaky with some other agenda.
I didn't get the impression that (polarized)-feminism had anything to do with the battered men shelter closing, nor that Alison was claiming it did. I don't see this video as a salvo against feminism or a rallying toot for MR.
I think she'll quickly come to regret aligning in any way with MR. I don't find this video to be an attack on feminism, polarized or otherwise.
If her claim is simplified to "you make assumptions you're generally not aware of based on gender," the behavioral science is on her side. (It would actually be surprising if you didn't.) It's important to realize this, because we can't actually prevent ourselves from committing some biases by being "better people." We have to structure things and create tools to negate the bias (e.g. removing names from applications so that "ethnic-sounding names" get a fair shot). We still should all work on being better people of course, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say. Some biases are like optical illusions in that you can't not see them. You'll always see a sensible pattern in your blind spot, and you'll almost never think about it.
You're not Sherlock Holmes. You're claiming abuse exists between two people based solely on your interpretation of behavior on public transportation. Your "data" is about as valid as trying to use the same setup to diagnose lung cancer or suicidal tendencies.
Go and report one of these couples. Have the abuser arrested if you so firmly believe that what you see is even remotely considered evidence. "But she's so BIG! And she said something awful to him! And then she poked him with her elbow in the ribs! It went on for MINUTES! She must rape and assault him regularly!" If a spouse nagging another were a crime, few married people would be free.
I could claim that, based on the length of your posts, that you have internet addiction and probably should be under medical observation. Please go seek help immediately.
Nominal Seems that MRA and women's studies feminists need each other or else there would be no one to yell at, and it seems like yelling is all either signed up for.
John Holmes Motherfucker >>I had never heard of this woman before this video, and did a little digging. Apparently the catalyst for her going public with these sorts of videos was the suicide of a man who ran a battered men shelter in Canada. When he couldn't get any more funding he shut it down and hanged himself.
Because of Feminism? As a person who just called himself a feminist, If she has evidence that feminists are preventing battred men from getting help, I want to see it, and if it's credible, I'm going to have something to say about that. If you want me to reexamine my assumptions, one excellent way is to SHOW ME SOME FUCKING EVIDENCE.
Maybe she does that on another video.
But until I see evidence my go-to assumption has to be that patrirchal attitudes are what's keeping battered men hidden.
John Holmes Motherfucker >>Just Detention is working to help these men, and end the violence against them that is so often excused.
John Holmes Motherfucker I don't think Alison's point is that men being abused is an epidemic, it's that she wants people to recognize bias in moral judgments that stem from gender bias. "How easy is it for you to see Jill as a victim? How hard is it for you to see Jack as vulnerable?" she asks. She's asking us to catch ourselves, to question our effortless intuitions.
But she's not asking. She's assuming that I make a lot of assumptions that I'm not making. If a woman hits a man, I don't assume that it's okay because "he probably forgot her birthday". And I don't believe that women are a victim class. These people are forever defining feminism as something I find unrecognizable, and they either don't bother to question their assumptions, or back them up with shitty anecdotal evidence.
I once attended a pro-choice rally in Binghamton NY, a city of about 50,000. I'd say about 200-300 people were there. It was a pretty normal feminist event.
Now, there was recently a much more angry feminist rally in Paris, that featured radical protesters who went topless and brandished grafitti of castrations. There were maybe 20 women at that rally, in a city of 2 million. Guess which protest made it to you tube, with thousands of angry comments about "typical feminists"?
TeenerTot "when Jack is hit by Jill, we resist seeing him as a victim, and try to find a way to blame him..."
It makes me think of post-rape "What was she doing there? What was she wearing? Was she drunk?" --But that would mean we see rape victims as the "actors," the strong...wait- does not compute.
I think she needs to re-examine her logic here.
Coax_Current TeenerTot: Interesting point. For sure she's doing some folk psych here. I think she rightly recognizes some unfairness, but then tells a narrative about why/how it happens in our minds, and it falls apart. But, it's not a legitimate reason to dismiss her highlighting of the asymmetry in the judgment (not accusing you; just saying).
I think her story about why or how we're being biased is probably quite wrong. My hunch is that holding the man accountable if he hits the woman is actually a rare exception to the "victim-deserved-it" rule, which tends to apply in judging most other situations (woman hitting man, man raping woman, poor being poor). Why that exception? No idea. I say "victim-deserved-it" rule, but it's most commonly known as the just world fallacy.
John Holmes Motherfucker So she concludes that if men's rights activists try to make people aware of such problems as domestic violence against men, feminists will oppose them.
Well, maybe, but that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is that, as usual, the MRA's are using their bizarre obsession with feminism to get in their own way. This is essentially a video about feminism. Why is she making a video about how feminists won't let them talk about violence against men-- instead of making a video about violence against men?
I did some searching, and the idea that domestic violence against men happens about as often as domestic violence against women is widely disputed, but you know what? Who cares? You don't need to convince me that men are the victims as often as women to get me to acknowledge that the male victims of domestic matter. Let's just shine a light on this problem and maybe we'll see how pervasive it is. But no, we're going to complain about feminists some more.
I don't get it. It's almost as if protecting men from violence isn't the real agenda.