Over 400 now...
Should I update it tomorrow when Israel will have killed another 100 people?
Hamas asks for a 10 year cease fire.
The UN comes in and says, "Ok, let's start with 2 hours."
Hamas considers the ceasefire, after rejecting Egypt's dubious arrangement. While they consider it, they fire mortars into Israel.
Hamas has been completely isolated here. The Arab League, who generally sympathize with Hamas, have encouraged them to accept a ceasefire.
This whole thing is very sad, but please don't pretend you give a flying fuck about Palestine or know what you're talking about.
445 as of 5 hours ago. 18 isreali soldiers dead since the ground assault began. it's just like in utopia, that old web based strategy game. if you have well trained, well armed troops and you counterattack, you see a lot of civilian deaths mixing in. the palestinians opened with "missile strike" which caused 0 deaths.
Baleen, I've been giving a fuck about Palestine for many years now, you're the local douche that makes excuses every time Israel blows up several families, kills protestors, etc.
I've never made excuses for Israel, and I don't support Israel. I'm just not of these jerkoff hipsters that cherrypicks Finkelstein and Chomsky in order to seem brighter than I really am, BUT YOU ARE! Have you read the Hamas Charter? That is your homework tonight.
I have witnessed otherwise intelligent people consider Hamas a viable avenue for Palestinian "freedom." When Americans pick either side in this clusterfuck it's usually for ulterior motives and/or they're just not terribly bright and/or it's fashionable in their social circles to do so.
What do you do when somebody fires rockets at you?
I'm not being cute with the question I'd like to hear what you think Israel should do?
Well for one they've setup a missile interception system that's pretty damn effective.
They could also use their special forces that they love bragging about and committing horrible crimes with.
The biggest thing they could do is to stop fucking dropping 1000lb bombs on a populated city to take out one target and "accidentally" taking out 10 houses around it. They have more than enough advanced weaponry to only damage a single house, fuck, a single floor of a house, but they just have to take out a quarter of a city block with each bomb.
And the death toll is up to 500 now
Here's a good write-up on how this situation came about.
A big part of it is the unending blockade Israel and Egypt force on Palestine, and Israel using west bank expansion as a social weapon whenever it's not happy with what happens politically.
It's not okay that Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians on purpose. It's not okay that Hamas uses civilians as sacrificial lambs as a means of getting Westerners to spread their propaganda. It's not okay for Israel to block essential access to Palestine, nor is it okay for them to deprive Palestine of water. It's also not okay for Hamas to attack Israel after Israel removes their Gaza settlements in 2005. Hamas-Fatah (and all the others) fighting each other certainly DOES DO as much damage as Israel. They struggle over control of farmland, tax bases, and water, they embezzle, they assassinate and extort, and Israel is overjoyed to see this. After all, they helped Hamas get on its feet in the 70's.
Also, if Hamas missiles and mortars are so worthless, then why do they continue to use them? Is this their only way of getting attention? The door to the UN is open, yet Hamas knows that any reconciliation with Israel will result in political loss. The moment Israel gives an inch from international pressure, Hamas takes a foot. So they play this song and dance, and Likud kills several hundred more people. They are completely isolated, so they are desperate, which makes Israel desperate.
You're right, people are not morons for criticizing Israel, but this whole thing is so simplified across the internet, that I'm highly suspicious of people who choose to depict one side as the sole perpetrators of violence. If all of you were zealously pro-Israel, I would be the first to point out how stupid that is. Also its SolRo so it's kind of my thing.
I agree with baleen's "oversimplified" assertion but at least this is not "kill all the Jews and camel-jockeys and let God sort um out!!!"
Maybe Putin coukd ride in and fix everything?
I saw this in the 54evil hopper.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon- levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909. html
He is an Israeli rather critical of all of this mess, and gets shat on for it a lot.
Go fuck yourself EvilHomer, you dumbass brony army stooge.
Jet Bin Fever
baleen has pretty decent views on almost everything EXCEPT this issue. You're completely wrong, my friend.
When someone shoots rockets at you, you should probably look into stopping doing whatever you are doing that is making them angry enough to shoot rockets at you.
A few nights back, I'm at my favorite truck stop with my headphones in, trying to enjoy my BLT and pinto beans, when a guy at the counter across from me insists on having the sound up to watch Fox News. No matter how loud I make my headphones, I still hear the talking heads. Apparently the talking point that night was that it's Hamas' fault that there are so many civilian casualties because they're hiding their weapons in hospitals and civilian homes, so Israel HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO BOMB THEM! Put me off my chow right quick, that did.
It's Fox News vs. Finkelstein.
If you don't support Finkelstein's narrative, it means you're a heartless Zionist. If you believe in the establishment of a secular Palestinian state, you hate Israel and love terrorism.
I was recently asked by a Ukrainian-Russian woman why I think Israelis should be allowed to breathe the same air as Palestinians. In the same conversation, she informed me that Jews controlled most of the economy... It's becoming difficult to differentiate a New Leftist anti-Semitism with an understanding of Zionism in its many forms.
Chomsky is a Left Zionist, do people understand that? When 850,000 Jews were kicked out of their homes across North Africa and the Middle East upon the establishment of Israel, he was out there promoting a peaceful Israel filled with kibbutzim where they could find a home. It's a little dance he does, trying to distance himself from the mean Zionists, but most people lack an understanding of the concept and place everybody in the same bag. He has long endorsed a two-state solution, and we almost had that in the 90's, but the lunatics on both sides fucked up the entire deal. That's when Palestinians could still kill Israelis in large numbers, and kill them they did.
This is why I think the only chance for peace is a one state solution brokered by the UN. Palestine will have to elect a sensible government that can protect itself from the many terrorist factions and gangs that control it (including Hamas), and Israel will have to boot out Likud. Who knows if such a thing is possible ever again.
one state solution with a right of return? i dont think jewish israelis would be too pleased with the demographics of that democracy.
i think there has to be two (or 3, splitting gaza and west bank also) states, the israeli settlers must leave their illegal west bank land grabs, the right of return to israel for stateless palestinians has to be rejected, and the occupation of palestinian lands in the name of security has to be rejected as a failed farce
Yeah, that seems unlikely for the reasons Az supplied. Alternately, two state is unlikely as that would present too much of a security risk to Israel. But it's ultimately the better option, given the lack of good faith shown by both sides.
I don't agree with everything Baleen is saying, but really it's a breath of fresh air compared to what I have been hearing. Others here seem to think he is apologizing for Israel, which he certainly is not. Not sure why everyone is getting so exercised over his comments.
|Void 71 |
The demographic reality of the region is going to be the undoing of Israeli apartheid. A minority population can only subdue the majority for so long. In the case of South Africa, a political solution officially ended what was already disintegrating. In Israel's case, I see the inevitable unraveling turning into something much worse because their brand of apartheid is more politically sophisticated (the public relations machine they have in place is second to none) and backed up by one of the strongest militaries in the world. It's not going to end peacefully because any Israeli politician who shows real overtures to a peaceful political solution will likely meet the same fate as Yitzhak Rabin.
Actually, things are arguably worse in South Africa now, it's just informal apartheid driven by Neoliberal economic policies, rather than overt, legally enshrined apartheid.
Fuck you Baleen
geez, who knew this was such a sensitive topic.
Related and amazing:
in case that upset you, don't worrt! she talked to some pet owners and got that story finished:
Remember, these people are killing each other over moon rocks, remember that.
I didn't even watch the video. Thanks guys.
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