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Category:Educational, News & Politics
Tags:Israel, Palestine
Submitted:Maru
Date:08/01/14
Views:1393
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Comment count is 41
Mr. Purple Cat Esq.
I recommend reading Robert Fisks giant tome "The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East" if your interested in this sort of stuff. (He was a very good middle east correspondent for the Times and the Independent and the book is a compilation of stuff he wrote in that capacity)
Mr. Purple Cat Esq.
Oh yeah, its weird that Palestine is suddenly a popular news topic, now that it has just about been completely crushed. One interesting thing that most Americans dont probably know is that: the USAs support of Israel with money, weapons, military training, intelligence etc. is the reason Al-Queda planned the 911 attacks, the US did pull a few other boners in the middle east but supporting Israel was definitely the main reason. They said so. Maybe some Americans will actually learn that, because of all yer fox news and the search for wmds in iraq and media and political confusion and I imagine many americans thought they were attacked by evil people for no reason, other than they're evil (or are fighting a religious war or some crap)

(I'm hoping canny already poetvers know this and also the jist of whats in the video)
memedumpster
So, of all the horrible shit we do in the middle east by supporting dictators, overthrowing democracies, and waging unbridled war, supporting Jews is why we deserved it?

I find their rationale to be piss gargling retarded, and their grievences too disconnected from reality to even be wrong. Sure, Israel are some violent force marching fucks, and we do endorse that, but not compared to us. Not compared to what we do over there.

Not even close.

Al Qaeda's opinions must serve their racism over reality, just like Alabama politicians.

Please note that my critique of Al Qaeda's flimsy disconnected excuses is not a critique on Israel and Palestine, which I would rather eat glass and set myself on fire than discuss on poeTV.

SolRo
The USA isn't as visible with the shit it does, and usually does it for a while and then loses interest. There's always a puppet government or dictator that gets the brunt of the rage.

Israel has been a jackboot on Palestine's neck for over 60 years now, and proud of it. In the same time the USA has setup dictators, fought wars against the dictator they setup, and then led populist uprisings against their own dictator, and that's just in one country!

memedumpster
"The USA isn't as visible with the shit it does, and usually does it for a while and then loses interest."

Not a single word in that was accurate to the historic or modern actions of the USA.

SolRo
Well, you're wrong, but I respect your right to be wrong.

baleen
SolRo, you are a stupid person.
By attaching yourself wholeheartedly to the badness of Israel (and they are bad!) you do not make yourself smarter, does that make sense!

SolRo
No. None of that made sense.

Mr. Purple Cat Esq.
Im not defending or rationalising 911 btw.. Just pointing out that Palestine is the main reason Al-Queda cite for carrying it out. Also I believe this simple fact is a still a mystery to most Americans

Mr. Purple Cat Esq.
ps. When I reach a certain tiredness level I become "INTERNET COMMENT MAN"!!
Chancho
"Jews flourished in the Arab world"

You should totally believe that and totally trust these guys.
Maru
Arab anti-semitism has a long history, just like European anti-semitism, but Arab Muslims passed laws protecting Jews in the middle ages and took steps to assimilate them. Compare that to a place like England, which was just one pogrom after another until they were all banished and not allowed back until just before the industrial era. If you look at their history in Palestine, the Jews couldn't so much as take a breath until the Muslims took the area over from the Byzantine Empire.

Bort
I do notice they claim that Jews were flourishing and yet composed only 3.2% of the population; sounds a little contradictory.

Would like to hear baleen's side of this and what parts are incorrect. As I understand it, Jews bought their land from local Arabs and also from the British, who really didn't own the land to sell in the first place. Wikipedia says:

---

From the 1880s to the 1930s, most Jewish land purchases were made in the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley, the Jordan Valley and to a lesser extent the Galilee. This was due to a preference for land that was cheap and without tenants. There were two main reasons why these areas were sparsely populated. The first reason being when the Ottoman power in the rural areas began to diminish in the seventeenth century, many people moved to more centralized areas to secure protection against the lawless Bedouin tribes. The second reason for the sparsely populated areas of the coastal plains was the soil type. The soil, covered in a layer of sand, made it impossible to grow the staple crop of Palestine, corn. As a result this area remained uncultivated and under populated. "The sparse Arab population in the areas where the Jews usually bought their land enabled the Jews to carry out their purchase without engendering a massive displacement and eviction of Arab tenants".

In the 1930s most land was bought from small landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, "52.6% of the lands were bought from big non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian-Arab landowners and only 9.4% from the Fellahin".

---

I won't pretend that Wikipedia is the final word on anything, especially on contentious topics. But I am very skeptical of accounts that are only one off-model Mickey Mouse costume away from Farfour.

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=18674

baleen
Lots of Different Conversations:

1. Whether or not Israel as it is now should have ever existed.

2. Whether or not it is just for a Jewish State to exist anywhere in the world.

3. The History of Zionism and the movements within Zionism leading to the current situation and why that came to be.

4. If it is possible to understand how things led to the military solution given the very complex situation of Europe and the Middle East from 1920-1940's.

That guy
The important thing is that now it's a totally intractable situation.
baleen
I found 5 wrong things in 1 minute. Not too shabby.
mon666ster
Such as?

I don't ask to be a dick. I'm trying to learn more about this conflict, which I haven't paid enough attention to.

Maru
Here's baleen's history: "This attitude in Israel has been around since before the Balfour Declaration when Palestinian land owners were scheming and mugging Jewish renters from Europe. It didn't take long for Jews to come back with guns, and the escalation has been on a healthy death tangent ever since."

That's what he genuinely believes is the source of the Arab-Israeli conflict in Palestine.

fedex
oh this should be good!

[settles in with duvet and bowl of popcorn]

SolRo
I want to know what baleen thinks about The Times of Israel publishing an opinion piece titled "When Genocide Is Permissible" (they retracted it later)


http://www.salon.com/2014/08/01/genocide_is_permissible_accord ing_to_insane_times_of_israel_op_ed/

baleen
"That's what he genuinely believes is the source of the Arab-Israeli conflict in Palestine." No, that is not what I believe to be the source of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

SolRo, I've never said that there were not horrible Israelis but then you aren't very good at paying attention.

This is a selectively edited fluff piece and if you actually get your history from this, it just makes you look like an idiot.

SolRo
You know what actually makes you an idiot?

Saying something is wrong, but being too big a pussy to state why your idiot ass thinks so.

Dinkin Flicka
Baleen is the last person in need of counseling on this entire fucking website.

SolRo
hey! now there's two people supporting baleens racist views!

Maru
What disturbs me about baleen isn't that he's a racist, zionist--whatever. baleen has made his authoritarianism abundantly clear in just about any police brutality video posted on POE, so his views with regard to Palestine should surprise no one.

What disturbs me is that he's a crypto-racist/zionist. He insists that he thinks both sides are bad; positing a false equivalence between Palestinian and Israeli hostility is racist by itself, but such a view is so mainstream it's hard to even make it visible; but baleen's criticisms of Israel are perfunctory even by that standard. In the post I just quoted, he's wearing his "well, they're both bad!" hat, but he's still citing the Palestinian Arabs (those scheming, mugging, hook-nosed, Arab -landlords- (is he crazy??)) as the primary source of discord. This is an impossible statement for anyone who has even a cursory historical knowledge and is not a racist.

fedex
(makes more popcorn)

Oscar Wildcat
(crunch crunch) you know, we could make some good money tapping these threads for bile to sell to the Chinese.

baleen
"baleen has made his authoritarianism abundantly clear in just about any police brutality video posted on POE"


You must have missed when I was posting all those brutality against the OWS videos because I don't know who the fuck you are and I don't care.

SolRo
Entitled hipster solidarity doesn't make you a human being all the sudden. You just care about people you associate with, not people in general.

Maru
of course you care.

Maru
i'm the one who doesn't care, remember?

Mr. Purple Cat Esq.
Sorry but while reading this thread I couldnt help but imagine it taking place between Maru the cat and a baleen whale

BillLumbergh
baleen is a fucking idiot anyway
theSnake
seems like a bad place to put a country imo
Nominal
Not as bad as Kevin Spacey's plan in Superman Returns.

Maru
It was never not a country.

BorrowedSolution
No Country for Goy-im.

baleen
"it was never not a country."

Actually it was a eyalet of Damascus and Sidon under the Ottoman Empire for centuries where the word "Palestine" was not even used to refer to it.

Before that it had changed hands many times, and its shape as a nation is really due to an administrative decision made from Damascus in the latter 19th century.

One of the problems with Israel-Palestine is that Syrian nationalists consider Palestine and Lebanon a subject of Syria in the same way Germans consider Bohemia their elbow room, which might explain why the Syrian civil war is boiling into Lebanon and why Hezbollah in Lebanon and Israel are heavily funded by Damascus.

Dinkin Flicka
It's striking how all of you are bound to the argument with deference to countries/borders, cultures, and religions, when, if you have the strength and breadth to be perfectly historical, none of these things actually exist beyond invention.

Binro the Heretic
Hamas is crazy & evil and no mistake.

HOWEVER, when the Israeli government makes it clear they are willing to kill the children Hamas uses as human shields to destroy Hamas' weapons & tunnels, they seem just as crazy & evil.

I mean, they're not even saying they expect to kill any members of Hamas with the strikes, just that they might blow up some of their rockets or make the tunnels unusable. And then they say Hamas is to blame for putting the rockets where the kids are.
baleen
Israel has crossed some horrible lines politically by attacking UN facilities.

This is, however, the first time a sitting POTUS has ever outwardly criticized their tactics, which will surely drive old Jews to the GOP, which will in effect drive more pseudo-intellectual "anti-Zionist" fervor from the Left on the internet.

Despite what SolRo and Maru think, most Israelis are not happy about what's happening. Israel has in fact "won the battle but lost the war." Hamas is quite aware that provoking Israel causes cognitive dissonance in the people of Israel when they retaliate with excessive force. What Hamas can actually accomplish with this campaign of psych-ops is anyone's guess, but I imagine they won't be re-elected, and that will cause another round of infighting between the various religious fascist factions vying for control, which will further antagonize Israelis, which will further drive Israel away from secular democracy, and so on and so on.

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