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Desc:Ukrainian President to visit Washington 18 September
Category:News & Politics, Military
Tags:russia, obama, Ukraine, Crimea, Petro Poroshenko
Submitted:Pillager
Date:08/31/14
Views:1071
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Comment count is 41
memedumpster - 2014-08-31
Has this changed since Russia proper invaded?

And don't worry, SolRo, Ukraine will be straight rejected in its NATO bid. No one's going to start WWIII over a country with nothing we want (Russia).
Bobonne - 2014-08-31
I unironically, if grimly, spoke the phrase "Nobody's ever cared about dead Ukrainians before", yesterday.

I mean, it was in a discussion over how fucked up Putin and the state of Russian affairs and this whole mess is, and how terrible it is for the Ukrainian people (the observation that the only people that aren't allowed to join NATO are the ones that actually want to was included in this). But yes, it's a thing I said.

This won't start WWIII. Because Putin is enough of a psychopath that nobody can rule out his launching some ICBMs if he feels he doesn't have anything left to lose. And he knows we know it.

baleen - 2014-08-31
Hipsters don't have an opinion on Ukraine yet. It's too confusing.

memedumpster - 2014-08-31
Russia is like a morbidly obese North Korea, which is funny considering their leaders.

Bobonne - 2014-08-31
The comparison between those two nations is one I've made myself several times over the last couple of months, but never would have before then.

And considering the only reason North Korea isn't terrifying for anyone but its own citizens is that it's so incompetent and incapable of projecting a threat to anyone but said citizens (and South Koreans within artillery range)...well...

memedumpster - 2014-08-31
Just a few years ago Putin's geopolitical bullshit kung fu was strong. He had the Republican party of America lining up to lick his asshole. For a while, I thought he was going to own us with business as usual. How does "return to soviet economy and piss off planet earth" seem like an improvement to conquering us with simple media coverage?

His state oil company is in bed with our oil corporations, and I get the sneaking fear that they have played him like a sucker, and he believes they will have his back if he pushes the shit cart towards the biggest fan possible.

EvilHomer - 2014-08-31
I remember back in '08, my entire post was convinced that we were on the verge of war with Russia over some moves they were making on Estonia or Latvia or some shit. Of course, I'm sure some British Army regulars were saying the same sort of thing back in 1914... owwwwhhhh, blighted Kaisah, 'e was rattling 'is sabers over Ruanda-Urundi back in 1908. Nuffing came o'it then, lads!

Somewhat related question: does anyone remember that video where the Russian general was talking about how he wanted to rape Condoleezza Rice?

Bobonne - 2014-08-31
"Remember Georgia? Nobody else does."

There's another couple of sentences I've spoken in the last week.

Bobonne - 2014-08-31
One more thing:

Nobody but Russia's neighbors is afraid of Russia's military.

Nobody is scared of Russia's soldiers, their tanks, their helicopters or jets.

Nobody.

The only reason they aren't the two-bit joke of a country every measure of them as a nation suggests they should be, geopolitically, to be slapped down and ignored by the rest of the civilized world, is because they inherited the Soviet Union's nuclear arms stockpile.

That's it.

The fact that any of their citizens believe any different is one of the more obvious NK points of comparison.

EvilHomer - 2014-08-31
It doesn't really matter if they're a joke or not. Any war between Europe and Russia would be a horrible thing, even a one-sided turkey shoot.

SolRo doesn't seem to be here right now, but I'd just like to say: SolRo, I hope we never have to fight each other. If war starts, please don't enlist in the Russian Army. :(

memedumpster - 2014-08-31
Europe is going to be starving for fossil fuel very soon, I don't envy the all kinds of fucked over they will be if they get it from Russia. The Middle East is practically National Lampoon's Children of Dune, so it's not looking great.

There's also the Arctic oil, and my curiosity as to how horrified America would be to watch Canada bulldoze its way in fire all the way to Moscow in a day and a half. We probably wouldn't pick on them anymore.

Bobonne - 2014-08-31
I don't want anyone dying in a stupid pointless war to increase Putin's dick size (or steal natural resources they feel belong to them).

Including Solro.

Man, I feel all racist and shit, that's probably some of the worst stuff I've ever typed. But I am seriously fed up with Russian bullshit these days.
memedumpster - 2014-08-31
Putin not only ruined Russia for Russians, but for everyone. Russia was a cherished cultural asset to the Western world, because we were once so bitter towards each other. It was good, it felt good to like Russia and laugh with Russians. We could share all our problems of living on Planet Suck together.

Crazy Russian and other patriots belong on poeTV, yelling at Americanadexicans about movies and dumb shit, not threatening to slag each others' countries.

Besides, climate change will destroy us all before any world leader does.

Bobonne - 2014-08-31
Look on the bright side, maybe the current Icelandic volcano shenanigans will get us a nice Laki Effect and we can have a massive human die-off that'd lower our carbon emissions while lowering the global temperature for a few years that'd mean we'd actually manage to survive climate change in the long run.

That'd be nice.

memedumpster - 2014-08-31
If we paved over the entirety of the United States in white concrete, would it reflect enough light to lower the planet's temperature?

Bobonne - 2014-08-31
Well, that's not going to happen, but if we painted every concrete surface on the planet (and the arctic and antarctic) white, it wouldn't hurt.

I also vote orbital mirrors, myself.

And ocean seeding.

And reforestation.

And algae/plankton genetic engineer research.

Bombing Mordor in Northern Alberta from orbit.

Also, rounding up everyone in the fossil fuels industries at management level (including all still-living retirees) and higher and executing all of them publicly.

But the latter is more about personal satisfaction than being all that likely to accomplish much of anything.

SolRo - 2014-08-31
I honestly expected better out of PoETV.

Just to find out you're the same retards that make up the majority of the voting block in the west. Swallowing whatever the state department repeats enough times while willfully ignoring anything that contradicts that diatribe.



I really don't care anymore. Burn this bitch down with nuclear fire.
Bobonne - 2014-08-31
You literally sound like a North Korean talking about how the Yankee Dogs of America fear Great Leader's Spirit and make yearly tribute to prevent fearsome retribution upon their cowardly shores from the glorious Taepodong-2.

Come on, man. You're heir to a cultural history that dates back thousands of years, a spirit that has refused to be extinguished by any foreign invader or cruel Tsar or Politbureau leader.

And now you're bending the knee to a slimy piece of shit having a mid-life crisis, an administration that feeds you one ridiculous childish lie after another, and you fucking eat it up. An administration allied with neo-nazis and their allies, even as it proclaims "the enemy" as doing exactly the same thing.

And you think that people pointing this out, and being frustrated at literal warmongering and constant aggression, means that the world deserves "nuclear fire"? Do you even listen to yourself when you type this shit out here?

What the fuck, man?

What the fuck?

EvilHomer - 2014-08-31
... I still don't want to kill you, Sols.

SolRo - 2014-08-31
Yeah, bobo. Go fuck yourself.

You've ignored literally everything about this conflict that hasn't come from a US/NATO/Ukrainian government press conference and then have the tiny balls to act like you know better.

Your retarded ass has cold war propaganda assumptions, I have hours of unambiguous video of Pro-Russian Ukrainian civilians getting murdered by SS worshiping neo-Nazis, the same neo Nazis who got positions of power in the government after overthrowing the legitimate one.

SolRo - 2014-08-31
And a further fuck you for painting all of Ukraine as willing to suck NATO cock, if only those evil Russians would let them, and disenfranchising all the Ukrainians that want to be neutral or even like Russia, in the process.

memedumpster - 2014-09-01
Is it bad that I don't care that you're angry because I'm just glad you're here?

:D

EvilHomer - 2014-09-01
Angry and stupid is better than dead in a nuclear fire. Please stay safe, SolRo.

Also: http://www.arabisraeliconflict.info/arab-israel-facts/fact-6-pales tinians-nazis

SteamPoweredKleenex - 2014-09-01
Literally hours, eh? Can't imagine where such unbiased and well-documented evidence would come from...

But keep on pushin' for Putin, champion of freedom and political saint, for he can do no wrong and thank goodness he found a way around his country's pesky constitution so he can rule indefinitely, like all good and just ex-KGB peacemakers do.

SolRo - 2014-09-01
Yeah, footage recorded by the protesters and bystanders is propaganda.

Go kill yourself you fucking apologist.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-01
Hey SolRo, you keep talking about Nazis, but you never actually mention who these Nazis are, or why you believe they are representative of the Ukraine as a whole. Can you explain, in your own words, precisely who these Nazis are?

As near as I can tell, having read a number of explicitly pro-Russian reports, the alleged Ukrainian/Nazi connection amounts to two things:

0- A single political party (Svoboda), who are roughly as conservative as Putin himself, and have barely a 7% share in the nation's (democratically elected!) parliament. In fact, Svoboda are currently the smallest serious political party in the Ukraine, now that the Communists have been partyvanned; they are about as representative of the Ukrainian nation as the Greens are representative of the United States.

0- A single grassroots militia battalion named Azov, which apparently has a handful of Neo-Nazis in it's ranks. This battalion consists of maybe 300 people, the bulk of whom are foreign adventurers, mostly *Russians* - which probably shouldn't come as surprise, seeing as Russia is one of the world's most fertile breeding grounds for National Socialism. Comparisons to the International Brigades of Republican Spain are unavoidable, although Azov is barely 1% of the International Brigades' strength.




So. An unpopular conservative political party and a couple hundred foreign volunteers, that hardly constitutes a credible Neo-Nazi threat. What else have you got?

SolRo - 2014-09-01
Fuck you too.

Putin pushes for some anti-gay laws and suddenly he's as bad as neo-nazis? seriously. fuck you.


Svaboda party;

"Svoboda advisor Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn established a "‘Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" in 2005, later changing "Joseph Goebbels" to "Ernst Jünger."[2] Mykhalchyshyn wrote a book in 2010 citing works by Nazi theorists Ernst Röhm, Gregor Strasser and Goebbels.[53][131][150] Elsewhere Mykhalchyshyn referred to the Holocaust as a "period of Light in history".[151]"


And their members were installed in major government positions following the overthrow of the actual democratically elected government.

"Oleksandr Maksymovych Sych (born July 16, 1964 Dert, Rivne oblast) is a Ukrainian politician. He is a member of the Svoboda party. On 27 February 2014 he became one of two "Vice Prime Ministers" to the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine[1] following the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution."



So your stupid ponyloving ass is referencing neo-Nazi participation being minor in the old overthrown government as evidence that the new installed government is the same, when the actual facts of the situation say otherwise.


Azov doesn't just "have some Nazis in it" it's lead by Nazis and reports directly to the government. In any non-western country, such an unregulated military unit of racists and neo-nazis would be called a terror squad or worse, but since they're fighting for the west, they're treated as heroes.



Seriously, burn this shit down, the hell with this failed species.

SolRo - 2014-09-01
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Ukrainian-Governments-Neo-Na zi-Links-20140826-0004.html


"Svoboda, Klitschko's Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform (UDAR) and the Fatherland party have been the greatest political winners from the ousting of Yanukovich, taking over 36 percent of seats in the Rada – Ukraine´s parliament - and becoming the major political alliance backing President Poroshenko"

"Today, for example, Svoboda holds key posts in the Ukrainian government including judicial and security posts. This includes the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence, Secretary and Deputy Head of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU) and the Prosecutor-general."

EvilHomer - 2014-09-01
Yes, SolRo, Svodoba. I just mentioned them. They're a relatively minor political party in the Ukraine. They have a few impressive-sounding positions, but they constitute less than 8% of the parliament. Why the source you cite inflates their presence by slipping in numbers from other parties I do not know (although I suspect the reason is to meet the needs of propaganda); Svodoba hold 35 *seats*, not 35 *percent of seats*.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29


As for the Azov Brigade, let's assume for the sake of argument that _every last one_ of them is a Nazi. What does this tell us? 300 people, out of a military force almost 1.2 million strong, are Nazis? 300 people, none of whom are regular Army, most of whom are *Russians*? Remember: the question we are asking is, are Neo-Nazis representative of the Ukraine as a whole? If Svodoba and the Azov Brigade are the only examples you can cite, then I'm sorry, SolRo, but the answer is clearly "no".

What else have you got?

EvilHomer - 2014-09-01
As for Putin, there's plenty wrong with him. The anti-gay laws are only the delicious Himmler frosting on the great, shirtless Nazi cake that is the P-meister.

SolRo - 2014-09-01
Minister of Defense is a minor "impressive-sounding" position to give to a neo-Nazi? Really?

I didn't say the whole Ukrainian army is made of Nazis, but it is given its orders by neo-nazis...so that would make them a neo-Nazi army, if they realize it or not.


And positions being held aside, the fucking leader of svaboda is working directly with the leaders of current Ukraine. You think that's minor?

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybo k-in-ukraine-2013-12


keep making excuses for them, Nazi sympathizer.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-01
Sorry, SolRo, but the numbers are against you. Even assuming that Svoboda is a NeoNazi organization, they're still only a small part of the Ukrainian government. Unless you can produce some more compelling evidence that there's a secret Nazi conspiracy at work here (and I really don't think you can; if there was a better argument to be made, you can be sure the Russian media would have made it already), then you've got to admit that the Russian claims have little merit.

Besides, I don't see why it would bother you, even if it were true. Are you saying that you believe any government with ties to Nazis is evil or illegitimate? Explain.

SolRo - 2014-09-02
You retard.

The tea party is also a small part of the American government, but they still wield disproportionate influence.

Same with svaboda/right sector. They make demands of the government, and the government carries out those demands.



"Besides, I don't see why it would bother you, even if it were true. Are you saying that you believe any government with ties to Nazis is evil or illegitimate? Explain."

a) fuck you, you Nazi shill b) the government IS illegitimate because it was installed by a violent coo c) YES WORKING WITH NAZIS IS FUCKING EVIL, I SHOULDNT HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-02
>> a) fuck you, you Nazi shill b) the government IS illegitimate because it was installed by a violent coo c) YES WORKING WITH NAZIS IS FUCKING EVIL, I SHOULDNT HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS.


Oh, good.

http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-motorists-shocked-nazi-flag-seen -flying-near-143209208.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/students-for-just ice-in-palestine-says-neo-nazis-are-right-about-jews/
http://www.jpost.com/International/Neo-Nazis-Islamists-chant-Y ou-Jews-are-beasts-during-protest-of-Israeli-operation-362742
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_an d_the_Arab_world
http://www.nyjtimes.com/cover/03-08-05/nazirootsofpalestiniann ationalism.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/research/publications/academic-publicatio ns/full-list-of-academic-publications/nazi-palestine-the-plans-for -the-extermination-of-the-jews-of-palestine
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3248081,00.html
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/nazis_palestinians.htm



I'm glad we've finally settled the Palestine issue, if nothing else.
SolRo - 2014-09-02
Christ you're so retarded.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-02
Retarded like Socrates!

You've maneuvered yourself into a corner. By your own admission, any government with ties to Nazis is evil and illegitimate, yet you also claim to support Plaestine, a nation with significant, direct, and historically irrefutable ties, not just to Neo-Nazis, but to *actual* Nazis. Clear up to Hitler himself.

You are a rational man (I think). You hold two contradictory positions, and now one or both must re-examined.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-02
(I'm assuming you don't want to come down on the side of Nazis, which is why I'm also assuming you're withdrawing your support for Palestine. While it is certainly possible to remain a supporter of both Russia and the PLO, that could only be achieved if you moderated your rhetoric against Nazis. This would prove most damaging to your case: literally, the ONLY rationale you have been able to advance thus far against the Ukraine, is the alleged presence of Nazi sympathizers within the Ukrainian government. Any anti-Nazi position sufficiently forgiving enough to give the Palestinians a pass for their ties to National Socialism would, by necessity, also give the Ukrainians a pass. You can't have it both ways.

Of course, I could be wrong. You seem to have jumped on the pro-Russian bandwagon relatively recently; perhaps you're willing to throw Russia under the bus, instead? We will graciously accept your retraction either way.)

SolRo - 2014-09-02
What a surprise, the retard doesn't think there's a difference between random neo-Nazi civilians and government/soldier neo-Nazis.

SolRo - 2014-09-02
You must be one of those retarded neo-Nazi trainees that made it into the US military after they lowered their recruiting standards for Iraq.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-02
>>What a surprise, the retard doesn't think there's a difference between random neo-Nazi civilians and government/soldier neo-Nazis.


So what do you call Amin al Husseini? What do you call Rashid Ali al-Kaylani? Sami al-Joundi, Hassan al-Banna, Anwar Sadat, even Gamal Abdel Nasser? These men are neither Neo-nazis nor civlians; they are the founding fathers of Palestinian nationalism and the modern Arab world, and they were, all of them, old guard Nazi supporters - and in Husseini's case, an active participant in the Holocaust itself. This is a historically verifiable truth. You cannot deny it. You may only deal with it.


We know your pattern, SolRo. Rather than engaging in mature, reasoned debate, you get belligerent, try to dismiss inconvenient truths, and fall back on name-calling (careful about the Army stuff, Sols. I've always been polite and never resorted to personal attacks against you, but there's a limit even to my good nature). You've done this before, you're doing it now.

But, as I've said many times already, I do not share baleen's dim view of you. I believe, on faith if nothing else, that you are an intelligent, rational human being. Your political views are inconsistent and contradictory; I hope you can come to terms with this.



If you'd like my advice? I'd say you should give up on your one-man crusade against the Ukraine and join the rest of us, in the center. I say this because I, like most people, am rather forgiving of groups with skeletons in their political closets. Most of us do not cotton well with ad hominem and poisoning-the-well, preferring to examine each individual on his other own merits, rather than writing them off because of some (real or imaginary) negative association. We do not think it's a big deal that the PLO was founded by a close personal friend of Adolf Hitler, any more than we think that thirty-something conservative politicians in an overwhelmingly liberal 450 seat parliament make the Ukraine a Nazi state, as Russia's state-run propaganda machine would have you believe. Putin's Neo-Nazi claims are really not too different from McCarthy's phantom Communist scare, or the Zionists' "anti-semitism" smears (the biggest difference is that both McCarthy and the Zionists have been able to produce far more evidence for the credible threat of their chosen boogeymen, than Putin has thus far been able to conjure up).

Of course, that's only my advice. You may feel free to go the other way, and abandon Palestine. You just can't have it both ways.

EvilHomer - 2014-09-02
Or, to give you a tl;dr summary you cannot fail to understand:

WORKING WITH NAZIS IS FUCKING EVIL, I SHOULDNT HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS.

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