You know, the thing I can't quite understand is how gay rights rocketed ahead in the past couple years while at the same time women's rights have actually slightly regressed in many ways.
I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled that gays are finally starting to be treated as fully human. And transgendered folk seem to be making some progress as well. But women? Not so much.
Meerkat The problem as I see it is that for women, bigotry supercedes their own self-interest. It's the cutting one's tits off to spite someone else's face.
Until Republican women punish the fuck out of white man-children for trying to control them, women's rights will continue to regress until they start dying of coat hanger infections again.
The problem is Republican women will continue to vote for white man-children because at least they ain't no sissy democraps.
jangbones "a gay white man is just broken and can be fixed...women and brown people are born inferior"
or some other travesty of reason that is equally horrible, I'm sure
John Holmes Motherfucker Yesterday on Twitter, I had a 20 year old feminist woman pick a fight on me, in the weirdest, most obvious way, and I got mad.
The day before, a woman had tweeted that for women, sexual freedom wasn't promiscuity, it was self-determination. I responded that for men it would be making our self-concept not be determined by sexual conquest. The woman retweeted it, and it was very well received.
TWENTY-FOUR HOURS pass. The exchange is forgotten. And out the blue, this woman who wasn't in my feed, never heard of her, I didn't know who the fuck. Tweets me "that's true, but we were talking about women, not men."
It would have been fine if I'd ignored it, and I almost managed, but consider what a dick move that was. I was gone. She didn't need to get rid of me. She essentially called me back so she could dismiss me. She was dismissing me pointedly, RETROACTIVELY For being a man with an opinion, and she's about one third my age.
Now here is where some woman in here might say with considerable justice "welcome to my world." , because women get dismissed for their gender way more than I ever will, and thats really really important to remember, but it doesn't get HER off the hook.
Sio I proceeded to tell her my whole pholiosphy of gender relations. She found it annoying, but I was okay with that.
Gender is a mess. This woman seemed to think that I was taking something away from her, that if a man can be a feminist, it makes her less of a feminist, and she's losing a part of her identity. It's easy to let gay people live their own lives, that costs nothing. However, if women get a better deal, the fear is that men might get a worse deal. The perception is that men's rights and women's right are mutually exclusive. I don't know how anything will ever come of that model but endless stalemate, and the continuation of the status quo.
Hazelnut The identity stuff makes me feel old. I used to be able to call myself a feminist and everyone (in California) got what I meant. Now it draws jeers from everybody, including feminists, so instead I have to give a mini-essay along the lines of "I strongly agree with most of what I take to be feminism."
Wish in any case that there was more emphasis on things like preventing absolute atrocities against women in the 3rd world, and less on catching people out for using the wrong pronoun on a campus.
John Holmes Motherfucker I honestly think that raising the bar for women in the west will benefit women everywhere, but when you talk about using the wrong pronoun, you're alluding to microaggression theory, which essentially is a license to be a huge bitch about whatever you find slightly annoying. MRAs mock microaggression, and why shouldn't they?
If I go to Women against Feminism, the first thing I notice is that most of these women seem to be what I, born in 1958, would recognize as feminists. The second thing i notice is that a lot of these signs that they're holding up begin with "a feminist told me..." I've always objected to this anecdotal approach. What's right is right, and an encounter with an unreasonable person doesn't change that. But when it becomes one encounter after another, there may be a tipping point.
Bort Anaxagoras - gay rights might be easier for some folks to stomach because, unlike skin color or gender, it's not something you can just tell from looking. I'm just guessing, I'm not at all persuaded that it's a correct guess.
Hazelnut - this is where I think "feminism" was the wrong term to use for a movement seeking to promote gender equality, rather than defining what it means to be a woman. I see both as valid subjects, but they aren't particularly interchangeable. It's like when Caitlyn Jenner first showed up and this caused some dissent in feminist circles: if feminism were really about gender equality, Bruce vs. Caitlyn simply wouldn't have been an issue.
Sanest Man Alive Well, thank goodness there was an elightened man around to tell that silly girl what feminism is really all about!
I kid, John, of course. Gender discussions are definitely taking a painful backslide in this country; in social circles because of MRA/Redpill/GG idiots who think a woman expressing beliefs and opinions will make their dicks fall off, and in politics because of grotesque clowns like Akin who want reproductive rights to return to the good old days... y'know, back when a woman had to spit out more babies than the cholera could kill off. It doesn't surprise me if a new generation of extreme feminists appears in response to these conditions. It doesn't really excuse their own vitriol and smug dismissiveness against male supporters like you, but it does explain it: they're copying the tactics of the enemy.
Meerkat: I wonder if a lot of the conservative women who nod right along with this widespread regression don't just think the battle for equality was already won forever and need never be fought again.
John Holmes Motherfucker hazlenut, I don't know your gender, and I'm interested in your perspective. You don't have to tell me if you don't want to know.
One of my seminal experiences on the internet was being taken for a woman, and suddenly being inexplicably raged at.raged at. As a former English major,one of my first usernames was Sonnet29. The rage would be almost palpable.
Because of this, I've always believed that a person shouldn't have to revaeal their gender, and sometimes I just go ahead and refer to everyone as male. I bet there are women everywhere on the internet hiding behind a male persona. if I was a woman, I'd certainly want to do that from time to time.
So if you're a woman in POE, and I seem to assume that you're a man, I'm really assuming that you'll tell me if you want me to know, and otherwise it's none of my business.
John Holmes Motherfucker >> It doesn't really excuse their own vitriol and smug dismissiveness against male supporters like you, but it does explain it: they're copying the tactics of the enemy.
As a tactic, it would seem to be MADE OF FAIL, but consider the middle east, whenever there's a chance for peace, the terrorists and hardliners know how to keep it going, and on both sides these people get their power and authority from the conditions of war..
Now we have terms like "mansplaining" which is when a man responds to a complaint of microaggression.
An example of a similar thing from gay rights:
Here'san article entitled Heterosexual Women, Please Stop Using the Term "Girl Crush"
If you read the comments you'll actually see indignation and outrage that heterosexual women are POSTING IN THE COMMENTS, as if being told how to talk about THEIR OWN RELATIONSHIPS has nothing to do with them. I got involved in that argument, and when it was revealed that I self-identify as bisexual, that somehow made a difference to the woman I was arguing with. WHY? She told me that she hadn't understood. HADN'T UNDERSTOOD WHAT? It's been a number of years since I've had homo relations. Maybe I need to go get fucked in the ass, come back and post some more, and that will make every thing I say correct.
The argument is "I don't want to be told that my experience doesn't exist." And that's valid.as far as it goes. If I'm a straight woman who calls my straight woman friendship "a girl crush" and a gay woiman is offended, her bad experience is as real and important as my good intentions. BUT IT'S NOT MORE REAL, and ITS NOT MORE IMPORTANT. You can't tell people what to do, and expect them to just fall in line without at least a conversation. Maybe you you think you should. If I stopped to think about it, maybe I'd agree with you, but I'm not going to do that, because IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.
magnesium There are still a lot of lbgt rights issues, particularly with regards to employment, that aren't getting the attention that the marriage issue is getting.
But, I think the reason women's rights are so much more difficult to press is simply that gender identity and roles play a much bigger part in human society than sexual identity. Even cultures that accepted homosexual behaviour or trans individuals in the past still recognized gender as a fundamental means of defining a person.
That, and it's been a longer fight. Women who oppose feminism don't tend to see the dissonance in rejecting the reason for the freedoms they enjoy, because it happened long enough ago that it doesn't register. Wait a few decades, and most gay people probably won't think the gay rights movement mattered, either.
Hazelnut Oh I'm a man. Anyway seems to me that there's so very much stuff left for feminism (women's rights activists, whatever) still to get done. Would love to assist in my own small way. But the attitude of "How DARE a MAN hold an OPINION" is... something of a barrier. So one learns, in the office and elsewhere, to keep opinions to one's self, not say anything that could possibly be misinterpreted as incriminating, and just sort of nod and agree.
Say a female colleague who I respect a lot says we need to hire more women engineers. Shall I reply
a) Yes, we need more women here.
b) I'd like that but don't know what the HR policy is.
c) I'm in favor of that, but to really make a difference the important thing is to focus on the schools.
Obviously, none of the above. Any of those three can be misread: A as creepy, B as passive aggressive, C as mansplaining. So best answer career-wise is: nod and make an inarticulate but mostly agreeing Mmm-hmm noise.
John Holmes Motherfucker What offends feminists who are dicks is my belief that men are significantly negativelty impacted by sexism, but many are unaware of it, that MRAs are now blaming feminism for the damage done by sexism, and that men and women belong on the same side of this.
When I say "For men, sexual liberation would be about not linking our self-concept to sexual conquest." what kind of idiot do you have to be to think that's got nothing to do with women?
And while I recognize male privilege exists, it doesn't cut equally through all strata of society. I worked for an hourly wage, in a corporation where (from where i stood) women tended to be middle managers. Men may rise to the top, but tusually, he lower you go the less gender matters, and the lower levels are the biggest. If someone can show me how, as a dishwasher for Marriot, I derived power from my maleness, I'll listen, but
just to assume that I'm privileged because of gender is baffling to me. One thing feminists say to me when i tell them sexism hurts men is that men invented sexism. As if that wasn't ten thousand fucking years ago.
it happens all the time that women are dismissed for their gender, and so, for me to act the victim because it happens to me from time to time would be pretty insufferable. If I thought that being dismissed for my gender was good for feminism,I'd jet it happen, because feminism is bad for sexism, and sexism is bad for men. But I don't believe that disrespecting men will
gain respect for women.
I believe that sexism pretty much rendered me for incapable of having a mature relationship with women, and now I'm facing a desolate, terrifying oild age, and that's bad enough. I don't fucking care whether men or women have it worse. We could all be doing better.
baleen black republicans, the giant whores of america.
M-DEEM Hey Emanuel, when did you CHOOSE to not have a neck anymore?
EvilHomer So having just finished watching the first thirty minutes or so, a question for my friend on poeTV: Which of this film's claims are incorrect? Which claims, if any, are correct? And most importantly, why?
EvilHomer Also, special attention should be paid to the following issue, which seems to be the filmmaker's central point of contention: do you believe that homosexuals should be given minority status classification? If so, then do you believe that this same elevated status should be extended to all sexual minorities? Why or why not?