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Category:News & Politics
Tags:slutwalk, Milo Yiannopoulos, Lauren Southern, Amber Rose
Submitted:Albuquerque Halsey
Date:10/06/15
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Comment count is 59
Anaxagoras
"Do you believe in rape culture?"

Jesus Christ. Rape culture isn't an article of faith. It's a well documented & fairly obvious state of affairs.
simon666
Obvious!

That guy
no
It's a metaphysic, the cornerstones of which are well-documented evil, and the main house of it is a castle in the air.

It's a rhetorically-obnoxious phrase that I don't think has progress as its goal. Over progress, it prefers litmus-testing for enemies, and cultural identity. Trying to identify 'rape culture' does a lot of slippery slope rhetorical work that it shouldn't do.

Cultural movement, not progressive tactic.
The round-head side of US universities is fairly broken.

Lauren Southern, while lame and obnoxious herself, is exactly the troll they deserve.

TeenerTot
Sorry, That guy. You're wrong.
I thought we already had this discussion.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>Trying to identify 'rape culture' does a lot of slippery slope rhetorical work that it shouldn't do.

It's not always obvious exactly what it refers to, because it's so new, and because there are SO MANY THINGS that it could refer to, but that's the opposite of there being nothing that it could refer to, and the opposite of "castles in the air" Acknowledging that there are problems in identifying rape culture (true) is not the same thing as saying that there is no rape culture (SO not true!)

simon666
Here's a common sense push back against "rape culture," which is not a denial of rape being a problem or morally wrong: That there are things in society or within culture that might (how?) contribute to someone believing (thinking?) rape is permissible, it is not the case that people in general think rape is permissible or justifiable. A phenomenon's existence isn't evidence of it being normal, even if other things exist that might be sufficient for contributing to the belief that rape is permissible, which it is not.

That guy
Good point, Teener....? Oh wait, you didn't say anything there, except for "no it isn't".

JHM
"SO MANY THINGS that it could refer to" and "not always obvious exactly what it refers to" is fucking EXACTLY why it's a metaphysical castle-in-the-air, and neither practical nor intellectual, you stupid lightweight.
Honestly, you're embarrassing yourself. Jesus fucking Christ.

Rape is wrong and morally the perpetrator's fault
and
Steubenville HS football case (x1000 examples) was a criminal conspiracy
and
Rape is a serious problem, and worse so in certain institutions
and
The legal system should take all claims seriously

DO NOT EQUAL:

-ogling leads to rape
-SI Swimsuit Edition, or non-fucked-up porn, leads to rape
-'I should never get leered at, hit on, or catcalled, no matter what I do, say or wear', (let alone the practical value of the hope never to be trespassed on by other people, especially in trifling-albeit-shitty-and-frightening ways on the street)
---the idea that looking at = leering at, or hitting on = catcalling, etc
-males need consent proof
-guilty until proven innocent / system should privilege accuser
-all men are capable of rape
-the fairness of double-standards for straight men vs everyone else
-etc etc

This sort of 'rape culture' slut walk bullshit is the consequence of a bunch of traumatized people + the decay of humanities reasoning / advent of radical feminism.

I don't blame the traumatized people for finding each other and doing something about it. I would probably be really slow to convict them if I was on a jury for their revenge-murder trial.
I will not congratulate them for all their ideas holding water when they don't. That is different than sympathy/empathy.
It's oil and water.

You're being dumb, knee-jerk liberals. Be smart liberals. Have intellectual skills. Start over.

I hope this was abrasive. :)

That guy
"That there are things in society or within culture that might (how?) contribute to someone believing (thinking?) rape is permissible"

Yes, and I'm not trying to shit on 'rape culture' in this way.

Even though we may or may not be able to prove precisely what beliefs, values, cultural thingies, etc cause people to be more or less likely to rape, those social influences exist.

I'm not saying rape is 100% biological (as opposed to social), or that it's 100% pure free will without influence. Not at all.

What I am saying is that the phrase, and the believers in the phrase are wrong 8 ways til Friday. The phrase is a litmus test for who's on their side and who isn't. That's a fucking religion.

TeenerTot
That guy, if you were being honest, you'd have noted that my argument put forth several examples of what rape culture means. Real things. Not "no it isn't".

Nominal
Dude, you get your rhetoric from Laci "I'm a 23 year old privileged white girl lecturing you on Martin Luther King's true intent" Green. You are not the pillar of philosophical insight you imagine yourself as.

There's most definitely a trend of weaponizing activism for the sheer sake of social and cultural othering. For Christ sake we see it from you and the other Thunderf00t obsessed chuckleheads every week (my favorite was Sudan out of the blue accusing all MRAs of being traced back to Tim & Eric haters). You're in it for the chide and mockery. You can't exist without it. You're chat cabal 2.0 whether you realize it or not.

"Rape cultural" has become such a wide spread net that it now includes the very concept of guilty until proven innocent. If you want to talk about well documented that is, how about the Rolling Stone UVA gang rape article that ended up being something straight out of the McMartin preschool hysteria? The accusation of rape culture was brought against the school there and shows you how dangerous this line of thinking can become. You can't possibly claim there's no chance of a slippery slope there.

It's an unfortunate fact that rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove, but that doesn't exclude it from the same due process.

That guy
Teener-

I was referring to your answer here, not in the other thread.

In the other thread, here is what I said about what you said:
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=148057
"I agree with everything you said about what the phrase refers to, in your eyes, except for one part, the 'bagging a lot of pussy' part, (and even there, I'm disagreeing with the movement more than with you, I think)."

I agree with your values/facts regarding what you think the phrase refers to. I don't agree that it refers to what you think it refers to... as in, I don't think your reasonable definition is how the phrase is actually used more often than not, let alone the rhetoric of the phrase itself.

Nominal-
I'm not 100% sure who 'dude' is in your post. Me? JHM?

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>SO MANY THINGS that it could refer to" and "not always obvious exactly what it refers to" is fucking EXACTLY why it's a metaphysical castle-in-the-air, and neither practical nor intellectual, you stupid lightweight.

Have you ever considered that that the problem may be this cliche analogy of yours?

A castle in the air is literally nothing. We're talking about a poorly defined something. If "there are many things that it can refer to", which you've just acknowledged, how can it not be anything?

Gmork
Poetv - a constant source of refreshingly civil discourse. Sugar coating not necessary.

The problems in society occur when people stop talking about things in this fashion. The disagreements I see here, even at their worst, are far more civil and intellectual than literally any other source on the internet I peruse. Oh, there's some reddit stuff here and there that's poignant here and there, but not consistently. That 'community' is a mixed bag.

Gmork
Whoops, added a redundant "here and there".

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>'m not 100% sure who 'dude' is in your post. Me? JHM?

I hope it was you, because I didn't read it.

Listen, are we arguing whether "rape cultue" is a clear, well-defined term with an agreed-upon definition that we should use in our everyday conversation, or are we arguing whether something hard to define but very real that could definitely be called "rape culture" exists? I think those are two different questions, and for me they have two different answers.

John Holmes Motherfucker
Gmork

It recently occurred to me that this is maybe the ONLY place, on the WHOLE internet, where I almost never encounter actual racism.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>Dude, you get your rhetoric from Laci "I'm a 23 year old privileged white girl lecturing you on Martin Luther King's true intent" Green. You are not the pillar of philosophical insight you imagine yourself as.

So you're going to lecture Laci Green about the meaning of rape?

That guy
>>Have you ever considered that that the problem may be this cliche analogy of yours?

>>A castle in the air is literally nothing. We're talking about a poorly defined something. If "there are many things that it can refer to", which you've just acknowledged, how can it not be anything?

Oh, Goddamnit. Nice quibble, JHM, nice quibble.
I used the wrong idiom.
How about "vague house of cards + hot air +
not going to affect change"
Are you willing to forgive the idiom now?

The 'rape culture' metaphysic expands into a system of truthy believies, with room for more and more in it, and then that system is used as a litmus test for friends and enemies.

Politics-as-religion, not politics-as-progress

Heaven forbid anyone criticize anything that you can find a way to connect to women while you are on your white and shining steed.

That guy
I get your question there JHM: "Are we arguing definition or existence?" It's a good question.

I'm arguing that the phrase sucks, which is directly related to what the phrase is used for.

evil of rape and dismissive attitudes ->
apophenia from hate and fear + shitty critical theory ->
'rape culture' phrase/definition does paranoia work ->
quasi-religion with 'rape culture' as its enemy/taboo/dichotomy

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>I'm arguing that the phrase sucks, which is directly related to what the phrase is used for.

I've never encountered it, but if you say you've seen the phrase being abused to beat people over the head, in the current angry climate, I have no reason to doubt you. I'd like to see feminists engage in a calm, reasoned, no-hold-barred discussion of what rape culture is. But you know that'll never happen.

Nominal
Who was I referring to as licking Laci Green's shoes?

Ha ha, who indeed most fits that description on POEtv!

Potrod
There were a number of people on Tumblr/Twitter (so count that for however much/little you'd like) saying that the euphemism "netflix and chill" perpetuates rape culture. People can and do try to make the phrase encompass an ever widening circle of ideas.

Anaxagoras
OK..... and.... ?

I don't understand how the existence of stupid SJW's (and Lord knows so very many of them are fucking idiots) invalidates a term that (when used properly) points to an actual phenomenon.

For example, take "mansplaining". It's a real thing: there are some men that actually do explain obvious, female-centric things to women as if the women are morons. That happens. It's a useful term, and describes an actual thing. The fact that so many SJWs misuse the term to describe any man explaining anything they (i.e. the SJW in question) disagree with is unfortunate, but it means they don't understand the phenomenon, not that the phenomenon doesn't exist.

Contrast that with "Liberal media bias." Liberal media bias isn't a thing. There have been countless studies that codified what it means for a news report to be "conservative" or "liberal", looked at large numbers of randomly selected news reports, and have found no consistent bias. "Liberal media bias" isn't a misused term; it's a phenomenon that doesn't actually happen.

That guy
mansplaining?
That was used for bullshit within seconds of its creation, for fuck's sake.

Any sloganeering you don't like that comes from the left?

John Holmes Motherfucker
I once had a woman tell me I was mansplaining during a twitter discussion of television binge-watching. It can become an all-purpose STFU card.

I once saw an article by a gay woman, asking straight women not to refer to their women friends as "girl crushes" because... I don't remember why, but what I do remember is that gay women in the comments were angry that straight women were posting in response.

http://www.xojane.com/issues/what-you-really-mean-when-you-say -you-have-a-girl-crush

Consider this. you're telling straight women in what terms to describe their own personal relationships, it's got nothing directly to do with you, and you're not letting them talk back?

Mansplaining can be an extension of this principle, and it's not going to fly. You can't tell people what to do and not expect a discussion. I say: mansplain away, but listen first. Women say they don't like being told what they heard or saw didn't exist, that they're crazy You need to proceed from the understanding that what someone hears is every bit as real and important as what you meant to say.

John Holmes Motherfucker
Fancy graphic logo: THE REBEL MEDIA!! (fuck you)

I say this as a feminist: feminists can be pretty horrible.

I started a huge shitstorm in the comments at WE HUNTED THE MAMMOTH the other day, suggesting something fairly innocuous like we might want to leave the door open to acknowledge the possibility that mental illness may, in some instances, be a factor in misogyny. Seriously, that's all I really said... but it turns out that this is some kind of unforgiveable heresy, because misogyny is always evil, and mentally ill people are always harmless.

I'm not qualified to have any opinions on the relationship between mental illness and misogyny that anybody should take seriously, but I objected to the rigid orthodoxy. I expressed my misgivings, expressed my respect for the pain of living with the stigma of mental illness. I alluded to my own diagnosis, and I said that as a person with a mental illness, i wouldn't take offense if someone suggested that the recent school shooter had a mental illness... I mean... didn't he? Isn't it obvious?

Well, that was the wrong thing to say. Before long they were combing my twitter page, looking for an innocuous tweet that could be twisted to accuse me of being a creepy stalker of teenage girls. Of course, I've heard that one before, so I challenged them to back it up. The weird thing is that they passed over the boxxy stuff, and just picked out the most ridiculous nothing tweet to wilfully misinterpret.

When I suggested that they were bullying me, they treated me exactly like a sexist male treats a woman with a grievance (calm down; you're getting hysterical!) They started talking about petitioning for a ban; I told them it wasn't necessary, I'm not going back there for awhilte, and when I do it'll be to lurk.

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/10/02/4channers-women-being -sluts-caused-the-umpqua-community-college-shootings/comment-page- 1/#comment-815358

The point is: when people are dicks, you don't have to get in their faces to get them to act like dicks. Where does this crazy broad get off acting indignant when people don't think she's really a journalist. Anybody ever see a journalist holding up a sign at a rally during a story she's covering? If I showed my dad, a 79 year old retired newspaper writer, that video, I just might kill him. OF COURSE she's just a troll! How does she imagine herself to be a journalist?
Anaxagoras
Huh. It looks like the admin deleted your post. That must mean it was wrong-headed and inflammatory.

QED, motherfucker.

Oscar Wildcat
The appearance of an actual slut and her BFF causes the Slutwalk to go into a tailspin!
infinite zest
Eh.. five for evil I guess. She's just raining on a fun event meant to spread awareness. It's like a gay pride parade vs. actually reading your Human Rights Campaign newsletters if you subscribe. "No" always means no, and that doesn't equal "Hello" means rape," but sometimes it can, and it does. I know 3 people, including myself, who have come forward as victims of sexual assault. That's less than 1% of the people that I know and that percentage is way too high.
That guy
I'm sure it's higher than that, and I'm sorry about that.

infinite zest
By "know" I mean actually know personally, and not know of vicariously or through the news or even people I've never met on the internet. That percentage is sadly much, much higher. I dated a girl for almost a year before she told me that she had been raped at a music festival, like she was ashamed about it, nobody would care or believe her, she was high,wearing nearly nothing, etc. And in my case, well I'm a dude. Events like slutwalks won't solve any of these problems but at least we think about it.

dairyqueenlatifah
Saying there's a rape culture in the US or that there's a patriarchy in the US is like saying white people or Christians are an oppressed minority in the US.

It'll get liberals, like myself, to listen to you for a minute out of sheer morbid curiosity, but then we realize your IQ is in the double digits and either humor you out of pity or keep moving before you notice our laughter.
Void 71
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa

Until Western feminists widen their gaze to include Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, where women and girls truly are subjected to systematic abuse, it's safe to assume that the bulk of them are narcissistic dilettantes and/or cowards who are afraid to criticize the non-Western world for fear of appearing racist.
simon666
There's a thread in current feminist theory that looks at feminism as a Western imperialism force such that feminist should be weary of subjugating women of other cultures to Western ideas of female equality or empowerment.

I'm sure there are many a long dissertations written on why this is a just attitude to take, but common sense tell us that there are plenty of things, e.g., rape, sexual slavery, honor killings, etc., as you say, that are unjust no matter what; so unjust that any worry about Western cultural imperialism off the mark.

Anaxagoras
Yes, until feminists agree to tackle all forms of sexism anywhere, they're not attacking sexism anywhere.

Similarly, if you don't feed all starving people, there's no point in feed any starving people.

If you don't attack all forms of racism everywhere, there's no point in addressing any instance of racism.

Your reasoning is impeccable. I can see why you (and so many others) adhere to that well-justified belief.

simon666
^ Straw man

Caminante Nocturno
I like Milo. He's exactly who the left deserves right now.
Sudan no1
So you're saying the left deserves a gift in the form of a creepy fascist-sympathizing straw-rightist? He's giving the blogs plenty of ammo to prove rightists are woman-hating whack-jobs.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/45122_Breitbart_Hack_M ilo_Yiannopoulos-_Feminized_Culture_Causes_Mass_Murder/comments/#c top

Even science blogs are getting in on the Milo-debunking fun

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2015/10/05/the- male-suicide-epidemic/

Caminante Nocturno
Like a trained dog.

Kid Fenris
He's a poor man's DigimonOtis.

Hooker
I just find it obnoxious when women who have never been raped complain about "rape culture" like we all owe _them_ something. Compare this to how we treat feminist issues like breast cancer, battered women, or opening institutions for women. None of that has same all women vs all men language to it. There's something about the areas of feminism where it demonises men as a monolithic entity that just brings out the worst in feminists.
Bobonne
yeah bitches, if you haven't been raped then shut the fuck up!

amirite?

That guy
nice straw man, Bobonne, to completely change the tone and therefore meaning of what Hooker was saying...

Hooker may have skipped over the women in the movement who have been raped, but willfully misinterpreting him and reducing it to one point is pretty lame.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>>I just find it obnoxious when women who have never been raped complain about "rape culture" like we all owe _them_ something.

Women who haven't been raped (and I don't know about you, but I can't tell which women have or haven't been raped by looking at the them) still live in a world where they're subject to intimidation and brought up to be afraid to walk the streets after dark.

On the other hand, I kind of wish that men who are not rapists could be let off the hook from time to time.

>>nice straw man, Bobonne, to completely change the tone and therefore meaning of what Hooker was saying...

Does changing the tone completely change the meaning?

That guy
enough, yeah
But I would agree with your first point. It's still bad news for them to have to be fearful. I just think the fear gets over-generalized pretty inappropriately.

Hooker
I get really uncomfortable when, after dark, I'm walking the same direction as a lone woman and she's ahead of me, because she becomes visibly uncomfortable, starts clutching her purse closer to her, starts speeding up her walk, etc. I know exactly what's going through her head.

"This guy probably is harmless and it would be absurd of me to just fucking run and I shouldn't act like this but everything is telling me to get the fuck out of here."

I feel awful, and I start running through ideas of how to to disarm the situation. Should I call out and make a joke? No, that's clearly a horrendous idea. Should I start walking slower? That's pretty frustrating, but I guess, and it will only _eventually_ solve the problem. Should I just stop walking or walk the other way for a while? It's pretty stupid that I have to do this, but I guess...

The effect of treating _all_ men like rapists and brutes is that women are fearful all the time and men feel like their very presence is uncomfortable and threatening to women. It makes everyone's lives worse.

Old_Zircon
What Hooker said.

Coax_Current
Recipe for the failure of solidarity and societal progress:
- Reduce complex issues to nebulous cultural elements
- Demand nebulous cultural elements cease
- Make moral high ground synonymous with being against nebulous cultural elements
- Define opponents as the embodiment of these nebulous cultural elements
- Define opponents as being unworthy of cognitive empathy and compassion because the nebulous cultural elements are part of their nature
- Dismiss distinctions among behaviors, suggesting equivilence because they can be associated the larger pattern of nebulous cultural elements.
- Avoid pursuing concrete gains.

The last one is the most important ingredient, but it's a natural result of the others. Consider, which social movements within the United States did I just describe?
FABIO
Regarding number 5, here's a succent summary of that from the most bizarre of places, a review of indie adventure game Dropsy the Clown.

https://richardgoodness.wordpress.com/2015/09/11/83-dropsy/

The most relevant part:

"A few years ago, I found myself randomly living in an Occupy house a couple years after Occupy itself ceased to be relevant and powerful and had devolved into a bunch of confused kids who were passionate and committed but not particularly organized or focused. My roommate was Cecily McMillana formidably smart woman who exemplified the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom statssomeone whose drive and ambition ran hot, chaotic, and ineffective instead of cold, rational, and efficient.

I remember one conversation at a party at the houseshe was having an argument about feminist issues with an older guy, an African-American man who I think might have been a professor of hers. I judged him to have been a little too young to have been directly active in the civil rights movement of the 60s, but not by muchhe was probably in his mid-20s at some point during the 1970s and had, based on his conversations, had direct family members involved. You cant understand what its like to be a woman, Cecily was saying.

Maybe not directly, he said, but Ive got a mother. I have sisters. I have aunts. Ive heard their stories. I have an idea.

You cant understand, Cecily repeated. I cant understand what its like to be black in this country!

He laughed at this. You can. You can listen to my stories, you can compare that to your own life.

No, Cecily said. I cant. He gave up soon after.

Divisions between people. Boundaries. A failure of empathy. A sense that ones personal feelings trump everything else.

It is fairly obvious, when playing Dropsy for even a few minutes, that Dropsy is cuddly and lovable, just misunderstood. Most people are picking up on that, and Im glad of that. Im glad that we have an indie game which is based on the redemption of the gross rather than the rejection of it; in this light, Dropsy is one of the queerest queer games to be released in a very long time. But whats striking me about the game is that its not simply about Dropsy letting the world know that hes okayits about Dropsy finding the okayness in everyone else, in understanding their lives and their needs, in helping them into a state of dignity."


Thanks, Dropsy!

John Holmes Motherfucker
All of them?

I completely agree with everything in this post, but I still think rape culture exists. I think that we ought to observe it, think about it, see what it can teach us, and not just fight it blindly. Rape culture is culture, too. If it really is everywhere, that means that everybody is complicit.

What men and women need is empathy for each other, and feminists and antifeminists demonizing each other is never never never going to get us what we need.

That said, I really think that there's a huge majority of people of both genders who totally get this, but those aren't the people you see driving the perpetual internet shit sunami.

That guy
*****

That guy
...all of them??

John Holmes Motherfucker
My post was in response to Coax_Currant Fabio must have been posted just before I posted


I'm getting a sense that we're all a lot closer together than I thought. I'm agreeing with posts from Hooker and ThatGuy.

The problem with terms like "mansplaining" and "feminazi" is that they make push people farther apart A lot of culture warriors on both sides of this don't really want peace, they live for this shit They all get something out it, whether it's sanctimony, vengance, or youtube ad revenue, so they'll keep the war going long after everyone else has gone home

Waugh
you fucking dorks make me sick


jimmyboblahey
Rape culture is Islamic. You can buy a pre-teen girl for 165 US.
If a false accusation of rape can ruin your reputation don't come crying to me about how society says it's ok to buttfuck without permission.
That guy
Who writes your stuff?

Bus_Aint_Comin
mr. lahey you've been drinking again haven't you

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