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Category:Educational, News & Politics
Tags:Transgender, Blaire White
Submitted:Albuquerque Halsey
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Comment count is 105
That guy - 2016-10-05
That guy - 2016-10-06
Articles Cited, current standings:

First Place: bawbag with 1

bawbag - 2016-10-07
Here's one more: http://www.impactprogram.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Kuper-2014 -Puberty-Blockers-Clinical-Research-Review.pdf

Meerkat - 2016-10-05
I object to vampire children; like, Babette really creeps me out man.
Maggot Brain - 2016-10-05
Is this the new face of the alt-right?
Maggot Brain - 2016-10-05
Shit, when and where does person agency start and end with these people?

TeenerTot - 2016-10-05
I agree with the title. Assuming they're using "transgender" as a verb.
That guy - 2016-10-05
Did you watch it?

TeenerTot - 2016-10-06
No. But I read the title.

TeenerTot - 2016-10-07
Yeah, that was supposed to be a snark on the shitty QUESTION?? title, but it didn't work out.

gravelstudios - 2016-10-05
Regardless of whether anybody agrees or disagrees with the premise, I felt that this video was well thought-out, well reasoned, and well argued. Not seeing much evil here.
Sanest Man Alive - 2016-10-05
It's dangerously foolish to think evil can't be any of those things. Not arguing with you, just saying. I definitely disagree with her about transgender suddenly being viewed as "trendy"; if anything, I see it as just more people who are no longer afraid of being beaten to death for being something they've secretly needed all along. The rest, I have no fucking idea yet; never really considered the issue. I don't even know this lady enough to tell if she's just some kind of kook or not.

I have several friends who've transitioned, but they were already adults when they started (one might've been in her late teens, but I don't know exactly when she started; it was before we met, and I knew it rude to ask). I guess if it was my kid, I'm not sure I'd be ready to put them through hormone therapy right away, when adolescence is already a horrible maelstrom of new hormones wreaking havoc and saturating ever corner and crevice of their bodies. I'd certainly want to encourage them, but outside of treating them like the gender they really are, I wouldn't know what to do.

Sanest Man Alive - 2016-10-05
Okay yeah, if I'd waited a few more minutes I could've read Bobonne's post below. Welp, fuck me for my hypothetical cowardice!

Bobonne - 2016-10-05
Ignorance is not the same as cowardice. I understand that people just want to do the best they can for their kids. Not everyone knows all this stuff, it takes time to learn and research, and there are people trying to convince you of different things and different "facts" on "both" sides of the issue. The 'culture warriors' have adopted it more vigorously now that the homosexuality "issue" is being "won" by the other side.

I get that it's a scary thought, having a child that says they think they're trans when they're young, far too young, for you to think they would do something like that. Part of the issue is that a lot of people think being trans is a sexuality thing. It's not. It doesn't have an age limit. It's about your identity, who you are, what you think, what you feel, how you see the world, and yourself within it. Hell, we even get TERFs because being trans suggests things about Gender Essentialism that conflict with their ideology, despite it being rather radically (heh) different than the religious or conservative types.

It's about being in a body that feels like it's betraying you. For children in particular, that includes puberty, which, as mentioned, is a "horrible maelstrom of new hormones wreaking havoc and saturating ever corner and crevice of their bodies". And when that body is being changed even MORE radically in a way, what feels like the WRONG way, it's a horrifying experience, one that I, and every other trans person that transitioned as an adult (meaning virtually all of us, because it simply wasn't an option for us old-timers to do so earlier), hated every minute of, feeling as if we were being stricken with a terrible disease that was warping our bodies even worse than they already were.

Just because we transitioned later doesn't mean we didn't have an inkling of who we really were when we were children, too. It's just, you didn't admit that to ANYBODY, not even doctors, because trannies were monsters, and being one openly would probably be a death sentence, whether it came at the hands of the other kids, adults you were supposed to trust, or your own family. It still is, far more often than it should be, even in these more 'progressive' times.

Trans children generally aren't being 'tricked' or 'sinful' or 'deluded'.

They're terrified.

And people like the woman in this video aren't helping them in the slightest.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-05
Not seeing much evil, just plenty of stupid.

GQ - 2016-10-06
Stupidity can VERY MUCH be unwittingly evil at the same time

gravelstudios - 2016-10-06
Thanks, Bobonne, for your response. I appreciate your point of view on this.

15th - 2016-10-05
What's next, denying preteens face tattoos?
betabox - 2016-10-07
Yes, the two are completely the same type of issue.

Bobonne - 2016-10-05
I'm not going to subject myself to 5 minutes of this.

All I'll say is, I wish I'd been able to avoid going through puberty before my transition, and I'm comparatively lucky, I never even grew facial or much body hair, amongst other things. Even so, I envy this younger generation who has that as a potential option, because they have, shall we say, much better results with their hormonal treatments, as your body responds better to them the younger you are, with huge differences seen in just a few years difference.

The drugs to inhibit puberty only do just that, inhibiting the effects of hormones released during puberty which produce secondary sexual characteristics and alter the body accordingly. If you stop taking said drugs, the inhibition is ended and puberty happens just as it would if you'd never taken them in the first place. They do no harm whatsoever. So just 'putting things on hold' while said children receive counselling to determine just what's up with them, diagnosis-wise, is actually the safest course of action to take. If it then turns out that, yes, they are trans, and they want to proceed with transitioning, well, then you need to look at what's going to be best for their future and their health, rather than what your ideology thinks is normal. Should a pregnant 13 year old be refused an abortion because giving birth is natural, and she's too young to know what she wants, anyway?

Yes, children haven't finished developing mentally until they're well into their early twenties. There's a reason they can't consent to all manner of things, including, some would argue, certain medical procedures. And yes, transitioning via hormonal therapy is a rather serious medical procedure, if not quite the same as "face tattoos". It's a treatment, the most effective and agreed upon one, for a serious medical condition. And it's time-sensitive in a way, with the body responding considerably more effectively to said treatment the younger the patient is when they receieve it. And the more effective the treatment, the better the quality of life tends to be for the patient, for the rest of said life. Remember cognitivedissonance in that other thread talking about all those ugly trannies with bad hairlines who don't put in the effort to dress like strippers/drag queens? If you're young enough when you begin your hormone therapy, you just look like any other woman, and you don't get shit like that thrown your way for the rest of your life.

Also, a lot of the people that claim it's impossible for children to know they're trans and seek help for the condition are the same people that claim all trans adults are mentally ill freaks that are mutilating their bodies and need intensive psychiatric treatment and medicating to cure them of their delusions, not actual medical treatment to deal with their condition (which doesn't exist, they're just crazy). So forgive me if I don't give such arguments a lot of credence.

Opinions are like assholes. There are all sorts of people ready to show them off over the internet, even if nobody asked for them.
15th - 2016-10-05
Stars for the thoughtful comment. I didn't watch the video, I was just presenting my snarky asshole.

I don't really have an educated or well-thought out opinion about this, but being the Internet....

Sanest Man Alive - 2016-10-05
Yeah, these are all for you.

Simillion - 2016-10-05
I envy the younger generation also for what options they have. This transwoman is an asshole for calling young people who want to transition for "falling for a fad" or because of concerns of sterility.

We have too many fucking humans. Who cares about more sterility? It's a good thing.

Most centers that work with a psychologist to confirm the consistency of a person's decision before going for sex reassignment surgery. This kind of step doesn't always exist for medications but it does for surgeries in most states, especially if health insurance is going to pay for the surgery; they will want a well established diagnosis of GID.

I think teenagers will be able to convince a psychologist and a physician that they consistently identify as trans. Especially since this woman's intelligence doesn't immediately come across as being that much better than most teenagers I knew as a kid.

So yeah, fuck her.

bawbag - 2016-10-06
Stars for Bobonne.

Bobonne - 2016-10-06
Also, I didn't bother going into it, but one generally lives full-time as one's (correct/preferred) sex, after/while undergoing HRT (hormone replacement therapy (though it isn't really 'replaced', even cis women have testosterone in their bodies, and cis men have estrogen, it's all a matter of 'how much')), which will alter their secondary sex characteristics toward their (correct/preferred) sex, to match their gender.

Only after all of this does one (can one) typically proceed toward the process of GRS (Gender/Genital Reassignment Surgery), which involves the surgical work to alter the tissue within one's pelvic region to match their (correct/preferred) sex, and for some men/women, 'top' surgery as well, for breast removal/enhancement.

What's important to remember is that every human is unique, and every trans person will have different opinions and priorities as regards GRS.

You'd be hard pressed to find many trans folks that aren't interested in HRT, as it's both non-harmful (barring some rare complications with testosterone/estrogen sensitivity and whatnot) and almost immediately highly palliative in its effects on gender dysphoria. I still remember the day I took my first dose of HRT with almost perfect clarity, when I can't remember last week, half the time.

GRS, on the other hand...well. It can be a whole kettle of fish. For some trans individuals, it's something they race toward, at breakneck speed, putting everything else aside to attain it ASAP. It can have a serious palliative effect that just HRT can't hope to attain on its own, finally, your body feels RIGHT to you.

For others, it simply doesn't ever seem important, for one reason or another. You're no less female or male just because you have something in your underwear that other people don't expect, and its none of their business, quite frankly, unless you've invited them to, uh, partake in it. Trans men, in particular, have some highly unimpressive 'bottom surgery' options available to them, to the point of it seeming pointless, though recent advances in penis transplants are a bright light just starting to peek over the horizon.

There are even those that have medical reasons barring them from receiving GRS, or making it highly risky. ...lucky me, with my crohn's disease, I fall into that camp, running the chance that any GRS vaginer I 'obtained' would have a high chance of spontaneously starting to necrotize and rot with very little warning, and no medical way to 'cure' it, barring removal of all the tissue involved.

Life's just a barrel of fun sometimes.

Anyway, my whole reason in posting this was to point out that GRS isn't something you just wake up one day and schedule for that afternoon. Most trans children that transitioned at a young age likely wouldn't even 'attain' it until well into their late teens, at the earliest.

Of course, even if they did have their barriers removed and 'get it' while they were younger, just in time to experience sex at the age typical for their peer group? I don't know. I don't have a problem with that, personally.

I may envy today's generation, but I don't begrudge them having what I couldn't, any more than I'd guess amputees from fifty years ago, who went through their childhoods with (DORRANCE STAINLESS STEEL #6) hooks, would begrudge those receiving the current amazing computerized prosthetics of today.

memedumpster - 2016-10-06
Your tireless willingness to talk to the monsters about the real humanity in their favorite targets of hate gets five stars and infinite respect.

You lift my day up every time.

15th - 2016-10-06
This was a pretty interesting thread. I've arrived at something after thinking about it for a while: I don't have a worthwhile opinion about this, so I won't fabricate a half-assed one.

But, I do have a couple of firm stances that have served me well in the past:

1) People have a right to happiness and fulfillment.
2) I am not a doctor.

I think this fits neatly into those two.

Monkey Napoleon - 2016-10-07
Again with this "there's too many humans so we should allow things that might be horrible to prevent more" nonsense?

I don't know enough about trans issues to speak on whether or it's a real thing, but that's not a legitimate response to the concern that we might be sterilizing people without agency.

Grow up, man. Isn't it time you let go of your edgy teenage angst?

Xenocide - 2016-10-05
It's really going to suck for her in about five years when she starts to develop minor signs of natural aging and the entire movement turns on her since they can no longer mute her videos and jerk off to her.
Bus_Aint_Comin - 2016-10-05
oh, a trans person making videos about their internalized transphobia. fascinating.
John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-05
She just thinks it mskes her sn expert on everybody else's situation.

Bus_Aint_Comin - 2016-10-06
i think there's exactly half of a point in this video that's interesting: our society continues to value trans people on their ability to pass.

she never makes this point openly, because i'm fairly certain she touched on it only in a "broken clock is right twice a day" kinda way, but i think it's an important idea nonetheless.

of my trans friends who are out to me, probably about half could convincingly "pass". fully zero of them give a fuck about passing afaik, but i haven't broached the subject with all of them.

my main problem with using ability to "pass" as a valuation is obviously that it reduces a human being to a metric of visual and behavioral signifiers, most of which are fairly problematic in their own right. it reminds me of old racist white people referring to a person of color with a college degree as "a credit to their race".

the TERF idea that trans women reinforce gender essentialist structures is frustrating as well- a particular trans friend of mine openly admits that she consciously lives and behaves in very stereotypically "girly" ways, and that a lot of these behaviors are gender essentialist at their root. it's an interesting thought: if gender is fluid, what should stop anybody from reinforcing what could be considered a structure of patriarchal oppression from the side of the oppressed? ideally, the more we as a culture tear down these oppressive structures, the less any sort of essentialist behavior would harm anybody, right?

maybe i should cool it on the coffee.

That guy - 2016-10-06

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-05
I don't care if you ARE a trans, bitch, you're not a doctor, and you're critcizing other people's medical decisions on youtube. People don't get advice on gender transition for their children from the internet. They go to medical professionals whose duties include informing them of the risks and consequences. You think you're relevant to this discussion, and you're not.

And that title tells me all I need to know about what an arrogant little busybody you are.
American Standard - 2016-10-05
...But very, very few children who express gender dysphoria ever change their minds?

And your average gender dysphoric grade-schooler don't know shit about "transtrenders" and is incredibly unlikely to be one??

And oftentimes it's not so much about producing a trans adult that can live stealth as making sure your child doesn't literally fucking kill or horribly mutilate themselves?????

Five for evil.
The Mothership - 2016-10-07
How did you do that?

American Standard - 2016-10-05
...But very, very few children who express gender dysphoria ever change their minds?

And your average gender dysphoric grade-schooler don't know shit about "transtrenders" and is incredibly unlikely to be one??

And oftentimes it's not so much about producing a trans adult that can live stealth as making sure your child doesn't literally fucking kill or horribly mutilate themselves?????

Five for evil.
The Mothership - 2016-10-07
How did you do that?

American Standard - 2016-10-10

Spaceman Africa - 2016-10-06
fully passing trans people can weirdly have the strongest case of "fuck you got mine" in regards to other trans people
Gmork - 2016-10-06
Five for the hissy fit this incited.
Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
Five for demonstrating that yes, there are actually people that think it's acceptable for children to make major irreversible hormonal changes to their body pre-puberty for cosmetic reasons. Holeeee shit.
TeenerTot - 2016-10-06
"cosmetic reasons?"
You really are a piece of work.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-06
"For cosmetic reasons"?


We're talking about a medical condition that is not widely understood, but which has veen treated successfully for at least sixty years. I'm assuming that trans children have the benefit of competent medical.advice, and people.posting bullshit.on the internet don't.

bawbag - 2016-10-06
Hormone blockers are not in any way 'irreversible' your whole 'cosmetic reasons' hot take aside.

EvilHomer - 2016-10-06
This is now a thing we proles can be offended about and get in fights over, apparently.

EvilHomer - 2016-10-06
As for the dispute between Mr Crackersmack and Mr Bawbag, would either of you be so kind as to provide citations for your respective claims? Ms White states that hormone therapy results in infertility, which *is* irreversible, and the articles I pulled up seem to corroborate this claim. However, Ms White does not appear to be a medical professional and coule be in error (mistaking personal experience for solid clinical trends), while the sources I've found re: the sterilization of hormone-taking children, it is not entirely clear whether the sterilization is the result of hormones, or the result of other, more intrusive procedures (such as genital-reassignment surgery).

It's a fairly critical point and would have a lot of bearing on the strength of Ms White's argument, so if either of you could expand upon your respective claims, it'd be great.

Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
As I understand it, a large part of the argument in favor of puberty-blockers and pre-puberty hormone treatments are so that the person will eventually "pass" better. Not taking hormones when you are 12 doesn't affect your ability to transition when you are an adult, it just makes you more attractive or w/e. So yeah, it's fucking cosmetic.

And while transpeople have always existed, there has never been a point before now where it could be considered to be cool or a trend. We don't let children get tattoos, sign contracts, etc. because we recognize that children are not mature enough to make long-term or permanent commitments from a fully informed position. They are extra-susceptible to fads and misinformation.

If we are letting children modify their hormones and bodies to switch genders we also should recognize that some of them are doing it for reasons other than genuinely being a transperson, and that they may end up miserable for life or far far worse. Is that price worth it so that other transpeople can pass better?

bawbag - 2016-10-06
Specifically Mr EH cross-sex hormones can cause infertility, pubertal blockers aka GnRH agonists do not.

The 'cosmetic' argument I'm not even going to address as it's fucking reductive to the point of absurdity.

Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
lol "reductive"

Does a person have to take hormones as a child to transition as an adult? No, they don't. The justification for children taking hormones is so that they will be more attractive in the gender that they transition to. That's a cosmetic reason, full stop.

And permitting it comes at the expense of X number of children being allowed by adults to make a potentially life-destroying mistake. That's just fucking insane to me.

Children aren't considered capable of giving consent in any number of scenarios and this is no different.

bawbag - 2016-10-06
You're conflating GnRH agonist treatment with full on cross-sex hormone treatment.

Again, pubertal blockers are fully-reversible.

bawbag - 2016-10-06
"Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment"

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02 /peds.2013-2958

Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
Children are considered unable to give consent for a lot of different non-permanent things, because children are unable to fully grasp the consequences of their decisions and are easily influenced by adults.

bawbag - 2016-10-06
The kids have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the docs treat this with GnRH agonist treatments to -stop- irreversible hormonal changes that are shown to severely impact their psychological outcomes as adults in transition/post-transition.

So a kid is given a low-impact treatment that is fully-reversible, okayed by the parents, suggested by the medical/psychological teams that know their case inside and out -with decades of experience and evidence backing them- to treat the dysphoria.

They then give the hormonal treatments and GRS after the age of consent has been reached so consent is not the issue.

Being able to 'pass' is more than just cosmetic, it's inextricably linked to a positive outcome of treatment for the pre-existing gender dysphoria.

I guess I just don't get how is this a thing you 'worry' and give hot takes about other than that you simply don't get it or have some sort of ideological issue with the concept of trans people in general?

Bobonne - 2016-10-06
But those hormonal changes are NORMAL, bawbag, don't you see? They're NORMAL, NATURAL, irreversible changes, so trying to interfere with that is crazy mutilation of their bodies!

Because trans people don't even really exist, you see, that's the secret they don't want you to know, they're actually all just mentally ill self-mutilating attention whores, so we have to stop them before they can fuck up their bodies that God gave them.

Think of the children, what is this insanity.

Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
It's not an issue that I care much about, I'm just shocked that there are that many people that are like "suppress a child's puberty because they tell you that they want to do that? Sure that's a great idea!" But here I am anyway.

Also I did google this a bit, and the signal to noise ratio on this particular topic is unsurprisingly very bad. I'm not sure that I 100% agree that using GnRH for suppressing puberty to treat gender dysmorphic disorder in children has been fully cleared as ethical, or that the psychological and physiological effects on children that choose to do this, and then change their mind later, has been fully explored either.

My larger point is that you and I both know that there will be some kids "muchausen'd" into doing this by their crazy parents. There will be kids with depression and other problems not necessarily related to being trans that will see transitioning as being a panacea and later realize that they made a huge mistake. Is that worth it? I'm not sure that it is.

And I'm not buying the argument about this being anything other than cosmetic. Yes, feeling that you are attractive as an adult probably makes you feel more secure than if you feel unattractive. This is true of everyone trans or not, but it's not a justification to allow children to make such a drastic decision. It's so much safer for them to make the decision to transition as adults, even if the ultimate result may be less aesthetically pleasing to some people.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-06
Crackersmack you may have a point. After all, you did a Google.search, and THE UNIVERSITY OF GOOGLE is where Jenny McCarthy gets her information about vaccines.

memedumpster - 2016-10-06
You know what's cosmetic and nothing else?

Being white.

bawbag - 2016-10-07
"I'm just shocked that there are that many people that are like "suppress a child's puberty"

Those people are doctors, counsellors and psychologists who specialise in treating gender dysphoria, with the permission of the child's legal guardians.

"because they tell you that they want to do that"

Kids don't just go through this process because one day they say 'I feel like i'm a girl/boy' there are -years- of persistent, consistent and insistent behaviours, all monitored by a team of medical/psychological experts.

"I'm not sure that I 100% agree that using GnRH for suppressing puberty to treat gender dysmorphic disorder in children has been fully cleared as ethical"

You don't have to 'agree' as you are not an expert; clearly from the earlier posts showing that you don't understand the basics of the process. Your hot take is unwarranted and based on a near-total lack of actual knowledge on the matter beyond some cursory googling.

"My larger point is that you and I both know that there will be some kids "muchausen'd" into doing this by their crazy parents."

I don't know or assume that, because there is no recorded evidence of that having ever occurred, it's a ridiculous hypothetical that stretches the bounds of credibility.

You've no idea of the hurdles the 'crazy parents' would have to clear for this to happen or the -very- low incidence of munchausen-by-proxy cases if this is somehow a sticking point for you. 'It can't be perfect, therefore it can't be good' appears to be your argument, and it's a shit one.

"And I'm not buying the argument about this being anything other than cosmetic."

That's the thing, you don't fucking -have to- 'buy it' , it won't affect your life one way or the other, but the preponderance of evidence shows healthier, happier outcomes for individuals who have gone through this line of treatment so again, your hot take is waaay off.

"Yes, feeling that you are attractive as an adult probably makes you feel more secure than if you feel unattractive."

It's got nothing to do with 'attractiveness' and everything to do with not being a target of derision, violence and murder by non-trans people, and also -on top of all that- feeling that your body reflects your gender. Psychological outcomes that improve someone's quality of life to this degree are not just cosmetic, they literally save lives BASED ON THE DATA.

"but it's not a justification to allow children to make such a drastic decision."

The children don't make that decision in a vacuum, or on a whim. It's not 'I like lego' and then next week they don't. Again, the child is persistent, consistent, and insistent, over a period of -years- about this direction and all of it monitored closely so the chance of your munchausen-unicorn is closer to zero than in pretty much any other type of medical/dental/psychological treatment.

Finally, the doctors, counsellors, psychologists and their legal guardians all have to agree that this is the correct course because it is an investment of YEARS of work for all involved, not least of which the kid themselves.

Accidie - 2016-10-06
your wordcount is ya'll being incredibly trold.
chumbucket - 2016-10-06
I just watched The Outcast episode of ST:TNG Season 5 instead of the VP debate so I'm all on the nerd train of gender ID, from a tv show. So I'm all expert now.
Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
The real lesson to learn is that Riker is DTF any gender or species, and Troi is cool with it and still wants to be friends with benefits.

memedumpster - 2016-10-06
Check out the one where Crusher dates a Trill.

Trill : I am a Trill in a sexy alien dude body.
Crusher : Damn right you are, let's get it on!

*a shuttle accident later*

Trill : I am a Trill in Riker's body for emergency diplomatic reasons while my new body shuttles over.
Crusher : EWWWWWWWW, I mean... okay, so you aren't really Riker and I am not as shallow as, well, Riker's normal conquests, so I can accept you're still my slug-daddy. Let's get it on!

*a shuttle arrival later*

Trill : Good news, I am no longer Riker, now I am a totally hot woman babe-
Crusher : NOPE.
Trill : But I thought-
Crusher : NOPE!
Trill : But you said-
Crusher : Crusher to security...

chumbucket - 2016-10-06
I had seen that one about the Trill and it kind of ended the same as Outcast, cue sad star trek trombone.

That guy - 2016-10-06
Crusher loves penis.

jfcaron_ca - 2016-10-06
The Women at Warp podcast has some nice extended discussions of The Outcast, and recently the "lesbian trill & jadzia" episode from DS9. I would recommend that podcast if anyone is looking for that kind of stuff.

That guy - 2016-10-06
holy shit, no thanks

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-06
>>>My larger point is that you and I both know that there will be some kids "muchausen'd" into doing this by their crazy parents.

I'm against that.
Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
No, you're not really. You're OK with that happening to some extent otherwise you'd oppose hormone treatment for children.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-06
Yes, that's true. Also, I'm opposed to bringing back prohibition, which, by a similar logic, makes me pro-rape.

jfcaron_ca - 2016-10-06
Yep, and I'm also for electromechanical speed limiters in cars even though "sometimes you need to speed to stay safe".

I'm not willing to sacrifice population-health-level benefits for your contrived edge-cases, even if they might conceivably happen.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-06
What we're talking about with this scenario would usually involve two parents sharing the same delusion, getting the kid to play along, and somehow fooling at least one (but probably more than one) medical professional.Thats the consequences we're trying to.avoid

The assumption is that denying treatment to countless children won't have any consequences at all.

Doctor s and parents aren't always going to make.the perfect.decision, with the perfect outcome. They're just more qualified rhan anyone else, including bitchy right wing YouTubers, and you.and me in.the comments.

Look at the crazy abortion.restrictions in spme states, based on politics instead of medical necessity.That's what you get when private decisions are made publicly.

Crackersmack - 2016-10-06
Yeah because everyone has two parents and parents are always stable and sane.

And I notice that nobody is addressing the part about how children with depression and other problems not necessarily related to being trans could be attracted to transitioning as a panacea for their problems, when exposed to the right influences. I'm thinking a child version chris-chan here.

These are all edge-cases and in the example of trans children (that are sure that they are trans as a child) it's an edge-case of an edge-case. This isn't alcohol prohibition or driving cars. It's putting others, children, at real risk so that we can accommodate a tiny tiny fraction of the population and signal to others how open-minded and liberal we are.
Bobonne - 2016-10-06
Fuck you.

How's that for addressing your "part" up there.

Bobonne - 2016-10-06
Just for the record, pretty much all of Crackersmack's posts have been well-worn transphobic lines of attack used for years, sometimes decades, to demonize, "other", and deny trans men and women medical care. This shit is straight out of well-established conservative, fundamentalist, and TERF talking points, with this last one being one of the most pernicious and medically unproven of them all, that has done real, tangible, harm, destroying lives, all for the purpose of...fuck, I don't know.

But you know what? Don't listen to me, either. I'm not an expert. I'm not a medical professional. If you want to learn more about this subject and try to make an informed decision, do some research, using actual medical sites, impartial third party information, rather than deliberately transphobic garbage or even some of the trans-positive but medically unsound woo that's out there.

I've tried to remain neutral and somewhat dispassionate, but I admit, it's a difficult thing to do, when it comes to this subject. A subject I find intensely stressful to discuss at all, truth be told, because I've dealt with this shit...well, long enough, really.

Thanks for the kind words, I hope what knowledge you all might find can help reduce a little of the ignorance in the world, just as one would hope would be the case for all things, not just this one.

bawbag - 2016-10-07
"so that we can accommodate a tiny tiny fraction of the population and signal to others how open-minded and liberal we are."

It's got literally fuck-all to do with 'showing how open-minded and liberal we are' and everything to do with 'treating transgender people in a way that positively impacts their whole fucking lives and has been proven to reduce their instance of suicide, depression, gender-dysphoria and a whole raft of other associated issues'.

So my earlier point about your objection being purely ideological appears to have hit the nail on the head.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
"so that we can accommodate a tiny tiny fraction of the population and signal to others how open-minded and liberal we are."

Yeah, that totally gives the game away. Parents will customize their children like fashion accessories because, you know, that's liberals for you, and they all watch Modern Family, LOL.

In these hypothetical cases I'm assuming competent and ethical medical supervision. That may be assuming much, but I'm thinking that virtually ALL medical treatments and procedures require competent and ethical medical supervision.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
>>>And I notice that nobody is addressing the part about how children with depression and other problems not necessarily related to being trans could be attracted to transitioning as a panacea for their problems, when exposed to the right influences. I'm thinking a child version chris-chan here.

When I say "competent and ethical medical supervision", I am addressing this scenario, and many more.

There is no major medical treatment or procedure that can't be harmful if misused. And do you have a real diagnosis of Chris-Chan or did you just diagnose him yourself over the internet.

StanleyPain - 2016-10-07
5 just for how much lurker troll shitheads like crackersmack are sooooo terrified of transgender people their little frightened pee-pees have to slobber all over their keyboard.
Monkey Napoleon - 2016-10-07
Part of this whole argument is that Bobonne's psyche bleeds out and covers the comment threads in videos on this topic in the horrible sludge of their traumatic past. This user is also, in my opinion, prone to similar reactions on several other topics. I don't call attention to this to be nasty, but only to say that it's not productive and this person's experience and opinion should be taken lightly.

In typical, knee-jerk poetv fashion, the only real example I see people using is the most innocuous example of the thing (hormone blockers). If what we're talking about is JUST hormone blockers, then I really don't see why anyone would be concerned enough to make a case against.

Of course, though, the real world is much worse than that. There are people who absolutely do advocate letting very young children start more serious, irreversible hormone therapies.

Guys, it's not black or white. It's possible to foster ideas and an atmosphere of being who you are and body/gender/identity positivity in children without letting them just do whatever the fuck to their bodies. It's weird to me how raising a well-reasoned, polite concern about the safety of children is viewed as a transphobic troll attempt or indicative of decades of transphobia.

It kind of seems like in this one case, it really has nothing to do with the trans aspect.
Bobonne - 2016-10-07
Yeah, well, screw you too, buddy.

bawbag - 2016-10-07
Monkey Napoleon, dude that first paragraph is a completely horrible way to start a supposedly good faith point. Moving on...

The only people talking about using hormone replacement earlier are the doctors, psychologists, endocrinologists et al who feel that it is the correct course of treatment and that waiting longer would provide a negative outcome for the child.

"It's weird to me how raising a well-reasoned, polite concern about the safety of children is viewed as a transphobic troll attempt or indicative of decades of transphobia."

When it ignores the current medical, psychological and endocrinological evidence that shows the treatment to be very effective in treating the long-extant gender dysphoria, in favour of a 'who will think of the children?' just-asking-questions hypothetical, it actually -is- "indicative of decades of transphobia.".

Much like the other -phobias and -isms so popular in the world (homophobia, racism, sexism et al), those who are engaged in them cannot see their own proverbial 'invisible knapsack'.

Monkey Napoleon - 2016-10-07
When I said "examples people are using" I meant in these comment threads. Nobody is even considering the possibility for abuse.

Let's have a comment thread about the more generalized mental health industry and see how people feel about trusting every doctor to be responsible, no matter what, then.

You guys make it out like any concerns are rooted in bigotry and that there is no possible other reason why someone might be weary of this, completely ignoring repeated mentions of the individual welfare of people society considers incapable of informed consent in every single other scenario.

Spaceman Africa - 2016-10-07
we really should be aware of the reality of Big Pharma's agenda of wanting to force feminize our youth

bawbag - 2016-10-07
"Nobody is even considering the possibility for abuse."

It's been considered. It has been put to one side because the possibility of such abuse is so improbable statistically, to the point that you'd be hard-pressed to find ONE reported case of a kid who transitioned because of a legal guardian's Munchausen-by-proxy/factitious disorder.

If, indeed it's 'all about safety' for this 1%-2% hypothetical child then how about we address the fact that the treatment recommended by the endocrinologists, doctors and psychologists reduces the absolutely -staggering- suicide rates of transgender people?

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP- Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Now seriously, having read those stats, can you honestly tell me that concern-trolling/worrying about the hypothetical 1%-2% at the expense of the actual 40-50% of trans people who attempt suicide is 'reasonable inquiry'? This is why the pushback is so vigorous, also you started off your remarks by deliberately singling out Bobonne in a truly fucking shitty way, so there's that.

The 'virtue signalling' argument is such bunk too, some of us know trans people, some of us even here -are- trans people and we fucking care that innocent people are dying for no good goddamned reason. If that's virtue signalling, fucking sign me up to the 'I give a shit about other people' club and send me my badge in the mail.

Gmork - 2016-10-07
"If you don't share the exact same opinion as us you're transphobic and HOW DARE YOU, YOU MONSTER!"
bawbag - 2016-10-07
"My reading comprehension level is that of a tiny wee toddler"
~Gmork: Novice strawman artisan

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
>>"If you don't share the exact same opinion as us you're transphobic and HOW DARE YOU, YOU MONSTER!"

Wow, that's some lazy-ass sarcasm, right there.

>>It's weird to me how raising a well-reasoned, polite concern about the safety of children is viewed as a transphobic troll attempt or indicative of decades of transphobia.

But that's what doctors are for.

There's no need to react with anger. It's pretty normal for someone to not get it, but when the possibility of Munchausen's by Proxy, something which I've only heard of on Law and Order SVU, looms larger than the possibility of real transgendered children, and practically every transgendered person talks about having those feelings since early childhood, you just don't get it.

I'm just guessing, but it seems to me that denying treatment to a kid who needs it, and treating a kid unnecessarily may be pretty much the same thing, condemning the kid to years of confusion. Yet the hypothetical TV case outweighs a whole bunch of real cases, because that's what happens when people on the internet try to set medical policy.

That's what we have doctors for. This kind of treatment has been around since the fifties. Doctors have experience with gender dysphoria. Guys on the internet, not so much.

Monkey Napoleon - 2016-10-07
A simple google search will cure your ignorance of this shockingly common type of child abuse.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
It's not clear who you're talking to or what you mean.

bawbag - 2016-10-07
'Shockingly common'

No, Munchausen-by-proxy is not at all common.

Munchausen-by-proxy/Factitious disorders are low-single digits in the general population and extremely rare by most professional accounts*, Transgender kids are already a tiny group thus the percentage if it holds to be the same in this minority population will be a tiny number of hypothetical cases.

That coupled with the constant multidisciplinary supervision means there are far more roadblocks for fakery of the sort commonly found in factitious disorders.

*See under epidemiology: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2990557/

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
>>It's weird to me how raising a well-reasoned, polite concern

You mean like

>>"so that we can accommodate a tiny tiny fraction of the population and signal to others how open-minded and liberal we are."

Monkey Napoleon - 2016-10-07
That's an honest (and imo accurate) criticism of like 70% of the discussion that goes on at this site.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
Again, it's not clear who you're talking to or what you mean.

jfcaron_ca - 2016-10-07
It sounds like Monkey_Nap is so cynical that they can't even imagine someone caring about other people except to boost their own ego or social standing...

Do you really think we're all arguing here just to impress each other by trying to be the most progressive? First of all that's kind of an ad-hominem and unrelated to the issue in the video. Second: NO! We are actually spending our time arguing with you so that our society can be marginally better for people who are having a hard time with gender issues.

We're not doing this so that JHM and me and the others can measure our SJW dongs or whatever.

Monkey Napoleon - 2016-10-07
It's pretty clear that I'm referring to your quote from Crackersmack.

I'm not THAT cynical jf, it's just that all too often I see people's outrage on various topics lead them to simplify others arguments or belligerently ignore key points so they can paint people who disagree with them as these evil hate mongering cartoon characters when that's CLEARLY not the case.

Even if people are sometimes wrong or misinformed, that doesn't necessarily mean their opinions are driven by hatred. Recognizing this doesn't stroke people's moral outrage buttons as effectively, though.

Maybe it puts a bug up my ass to see people slam others for skepticism, instead of having a rational reasonable discussion.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-10-07
There's no point in getting all angry if you can avoid it, but I really do think that crackersmack's argument is far more simplistic and.disrespectful. Saying that someone is.misogynist, or racist, or homophobic or whatever is usually pointless in an argument, because you can never prove it and the argument goes nowhere, but real transphobes don't talk about how much they hate people who are trans; they talk about how.being trans isn't a real thing. I can't prove that crackersmack is transphobic, but if someone were to make that assumption, it would be understandable.

EvilHomer - 2016-10-07
So I bought a Rainbow Dash hat today. It's got ears, and these little wings on the side, which you can flap by squeezing a puffy tassle.

I think it's pretty cool. Have you guys treated yourself to anything nice lately? Discuss it here!
EvilHomer - 2016-10-07
It's one of these things:

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/7148218c-8105-42f0-aa72-3afa2 287aa13_1.4bea18d810e3f9ef58b4001b0fbc8f2d.jpeg

jfcaron_ca - 2016-10-07
I've feel like I've been on a consumerist binge lately:
- Yamaha PSS-560 keyboard on ebay.
- New string for my longbow, and soon arrows.
- 2nd SSD hard drive for my laptop.
- Bunch of truck repairs, some of which are not critical.
- Groceries at Whole Foods instead of usual store.

Bobonne - 2016-10-07
I bought a copy of L.A. Noire a couple of weeks ago, when it was on sale on Steam. It's pretty fun, so far.

memedumpster - 2016-10-07
I bought a new slow cooker.

Bus_Aint_Comin - 2016-10-08
i spent ~$60 on barbecue delivery last night

EvilHomer - 2016-10-08
The Yamaha sounds like fun! You should record something and put it up on Youtube.

LA Noire is also fun, but just a warning: there isn't much replay value, and it farts out at the end.

jfcaron_ca - 2016-10-10
Here's my playing around with the Yamaha:

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