|MurgatroidMendelbaum - 2016-12-02 |
I have absolutely no desire to opine on this video.
I only voted it up to watch the enlightened dialogue that will no doubt follow.
It's about evenly split between valid points and shameless strawmanning, served on a bed of projection.
|Xenocide - 2016-12-02 |
I know when I'm looking for sound political advice, I look for the videos with a 4chan meme as their cover image.
I don't think I'll be watching this.
I'm going to assume they mean, "reclaiming the left from mewling pushovers who are unwilling to cut throats." In that case I agree.
If the meme fits, wear it.
Call a group of people racist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic, islamaphobic, sexist, etc too many times & they develop a social allergy to you.
Please find something better than shaming tactics before 2018.
Good job regurgitating far-right memes about how the left needs to change to suit their shit though. hurr durr.
|Maggot Brain - 2016-12-02 |
|SolRo - 2016-12-03 |
I guess we're all waiting for pillager to tell us if he's serious and really that stupid.
Since it's my job to make assumptions on this site, I'll go ahead and assume that he is.
There actually are people who think the key to "bringing back the left" is to turn it into a barely watered-down imitation of the the alt-right, so let's go ahead and rate that idea.
They key is to force enough Republicans out of office that progressive shit can actually get through without being watered down to appease them.
Pillager refuses to vote to democrats into a meaningful majority unless they first deliver legislation that can only be accomplished with a meaningful majority.
Stars for the strategy of neglecting minorities in favor of straight white males. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys were telling the Bernie Bros that they needed to "compromise" - needed to support the neoliberal establishment, not because of ethics or policy, but for the sake of mere political expediency?
If the 'political expediency' argument was convincing enough to get you campaigning for that Wall Street chicken-hawk Hillary Clinton, then surely it's convincing enough that you can stomach treating the working class a little more kindly?
What Homer said, loathe as I am to agree.
Haven't watched the video - just going to throw this idea out there:
If the Dems are smart they'll do their best to purge the party of neoliberals that have any control of the agenda. Fold the Clintons up and put them in a box along with their acolytes. I really think the future of the party lies in a populist direction pointed towards by Sanders, and maybe Warren and Ellison, that leads to championing a center-left social democracy much like the one that was so popular with working class voters of all races when Sanders said it.
I'll respond to you on this one, EH, because I've heard that refrain often enough that it's not just you doing a thing; it's also a big chunk of the ostensible Left.
When you speak of "the working class", let's be very clear whom you're talking about: the white working class. And that is a demographic the Democrats have NEVER neglected. The problem is that much of the white working class ... let's not dance around it, WHITES overall buy the notion that the Democrats are supporting minorities and oppressing white people, and the Republicans will look after white people.
At present the unemployment rate in the US is 4.6%, and last I heard, the median income is around $56,000. Not bad but it could be better, which is why (for example) Hillary was down with a minimum wage increase and the usual raft of economic proposals that Republicans routinely reject.
So it's not what Democrats are or aren't doing, so much as white people being suckers for the Republicans' sales pitch. What to do about it? I really have no idea how to win over white Republicans (which is almost the only kind), but people on the Left could compensate by actually casting a meaningful vote against the Republicans.
"populist direction pointed towards by Sanders"
Which is to say, ignoring black people until they forcibly take the microphone from him.
As hard as it is to win against a racist Republican Party, it'd be even harder to win by trying to adopt their methods -- becoming, exactly as Xenocide said, a barely watered-down imitation of the the alt-right. Besides how such a Democratic Party would not be worth supporting, there is also the reality that blacks are the most reliable bloc the Democrats have.
Mr Bort, if you don't have any idea what "the Left" could do to appeal to working-class white people, then maybe you could start by watching this video, and listening to what Pillager, kingarthur, et al, have to say? Entertain their arguments.
That is, after all, the central conceit behind democracy: rulers are supposed to represent the people, so would-be rulers need to understand the people, and make at least some effort to give the plebs what they want - regardless of what the ruler thinks is in the plebs' best interest.
The neoliberal establishment thought they could win this election by relying on their control over Old Media and a daily artillery barrage of predictable ad hominem attacks. Turns out, they were wrong. Now it's up to you guys to adapt - like LBJ, Reagan, and now Trump did - or to step aside and let some more dynamic third party take your place.
I'm honestly at the point where I don't think the Democrat establishment is capable of learning.
The only reason the unemployment number is so low is due to so many people dropping out of the work force. Also, the jobs being created are nowhere near the pace needed to recover from 08 and haven't been all through Obama's presidency (not that that is entirely his fault). Plus those jobs are usually poverty wages with no benefits.
Furthermore, the median income is not an accurate gauge of how the actual country is doing. You know this. I mean, you have to know this.
It's really easy to blanket-statement the left as racists but it's far, far from the reality.
Logic just isn't your strong suit, is it Solro?
The Dems talk a great game about helping working class people, take massive checks for Goldman Sachs, and then leave the room & abandon the poor to the mercy of world global economy.
@ Bort, no I never said forget about minorities, annoyed as I am with the incessant identity politics drone. However, the Dems won't win unless they start to reclaim the spine of country. Say what you want about the repubs & swing voters; At Least They Show Up & Actually VOTE!
So, can I expect you all to be sad ostriches & keep your heads buried in the sands of denial or will you forsake failed neoliberalism?
Pillager, Trump supporters aren't going around saying, "I would have supported Hillary if she promised a $15 minimum wage, but at $12 it's no sale." You want to believe that's the case but that's horseshit. They won't back the Democrats simply because they're Democrats, a.k.a. the nigger-lover party; in fact they'll instead support the party that would rather do away with minimum wages altogether.
"Bort, no I never said forget about minorities, annoyed as I am with the incessant identity politics drone."
Let's not be so circumspect about it: when it comes to platforms and agendas, you think blacks should move to the back of the bus. That's what you're saying whether or not you want to own up to it.
Blow it out your ass, bort.
Shrillary was a two faced, lying, corrupt hack. No Sander's Supporter wants to go back to the Jim Crow days. Please discard your white hooded Strawman.
Watch this brilliant video & all will be explained.
"No Sander's Supporter wants to go back to the Jim Crow days."
Yeah I have my doubts about that. All that's required to be a Sanders supporter is to believe that rich people are picking your pocket; I don't infer any morality from that. (Many) Sanders supporters carry themselves just like Teabaggers, with the only difference being that the Teabaggers are making enough money to instead believe the government is picking their pockets.
Remember the Sanders supporters issuing death threats against children and grandmothers after Nevada? Fine fine people all around. Give them $10,000 more a year and they'll be wearing tea bags on their heads.
"The only reason the unemployment number is so low is due to so many people dropping out of the work force."
"The only reason the unemployment number is so low is due to so many people dropping out of the work force."
It was true-ish years ago, and why update your talking points just because reality changes? Oh wait, that's another similarity between Bernie supporters and the Teabaggers.
"Nobody cares about black people as much as Bort."
Just call me a "nigger-lover"; you know you want to.
You're not doing much to persuade me that Bernie supporters are any different from Teabaggers ... except perhaps for the terminology you use.
Bernie supporters not pure enough for you, Bort? YOU SOUND LIKE A BERNIE SUPPORTER.
>>Just call me a "nigger-lover"; you know you want to.
No, I really don't. That's fucking insane.
"Yeah I have my doubts about that. All that's required to be a Sanders supporter is to believe that rich people are picking your pocket; I don't infer any morality from that. (Many) Sanders supporters carry themselves just like Teabaggers, with the only difference being that the Teabaggers are making enough money to instead believe the government is picking their pockets."
Boo fucking hoo. Sander's supporter want a return to the day where the gov't had your back like FDR.
Unlike the out of touch Hillary "Bring Super Predators to Heel" Clinton...
"Remember the Sanders supporters issuing death threats against children and grandmothers after Nevada? Fine fine people all around. Give them $10,000 more a year and they'll be wearing tea bags on their heads."
Stop parroting Shrillary's lies.
She's earned her place in the dustbin of history.
You made a huge mistake by supporting a worthless candidate like HRC. Enjoy 8 years of Trump.
"...then surely it's convincing enough that you can stomach treating the working class a little more kindly?"
Making the assumption that the left doesn't make up a significant portion of the working class is incredibly naive.
Bort, you're really doing a good job right now of supporting the core thesis of this video. You might want to take a brisk walk around the block before you respond to this thread again, seriously.
I've said it before, there's no need to reach out to the working class whites, cause they're too stupid and racist to be reasoned with.
I've always thought Bort to be one of the sanest voices here when it comes to elections and political realities. It really is as simple as kicking as many Republicans out of office as possible and worrying about the rest later.
The problem is the way too large contingent of people who believe that Democrats are just the same as Republicans (except Bernie!). "Sure Trump is stacking his cabinet with former Wall st executives, but HILLARY was paid to give a SPEECH at Goldman Sachs!"
Holy shit no the way forward is not for there to be more Bernies and that BrandNewCongress crap running amok. If you think party catering to working class whites is a waste of time, I've got bad news for you about the worth of the white college student vote.
I just want to know where these raging idiots came from that think the democratic party has no working class supporters, no working class people in it, or even the democrats that aren't working class now were never working class. Also that 'working class' means white people, mostly men....because those lazy minorities surely don't work!
I just get the feeling they're college age fucktards that are racists deep down but being leftist is their current fad and they'll become republicans as soon as they graduate and become partners at their parents firm.
SolRo, the raging idiots you're talking about include Sen Chuck Schumer -- "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin." -- and just about the whole Hillary campaign.
Also when you say "fucktard" like that it sounds like you're whimpering.
|That guy - 2016-12-03 |
5 for people one-starring this, and finding any little thing to complain about.
Also for Xeno's IQ dropping rapidly in the last year or so.
Jesus Christ man, stop following SolRo around like a puppydog.
You're better than this.
The video wasn't great, but this thread lends it some credibility.
I'm not supporting it because this guy descended into Reddit level rhetoric too many times, and even if I agree with a lot of the basic criticisms of the Democratic establishment I wouldn't trust his ilk to do any better at all if the tables were turned.
Also the people he's talking about are a smaller minority than he seems to think, they've just been given a huge soapbox by the Internet and he is obviously too deep into the Internet himself to have perspective.
I live and work in the most liberal neighborhoods of the most liberal town in one of the most liberal states in the country and I'd estimate that only maybe 5%-10% of the liberal types under 50 years old that I've talked to in the last decade here fit the descriptions he's throwing out (although there are a LOT more who only fit part of it, usually the internalized classism).
That said, in the past 24 hours I heard someone told without a bit of irony that wearing a tie is an act of patriarchal oppression* and I hear (and occasionally get roped in to) comparable conversations at least once or twice a week.
But again, there are only a handful of people making those arguments, the vast majority under 50 (and ESPECIALLY under 4 - Gen X is where things start to get especially dicey on all sides) are pretty sharp, intellectually curious and have informed, evolving opinions. People just ignore them because actual engagement and nuance is a drag, maaan.
*it's worth noting that the person making the argument was wearing HEAVY makeup at the time, which would have been subject to the exact same criticism 30 years ago before the 90s made makeup not-sexist.
Mistyped, "supporting" should be "starring."
Anyway, I really wish I had been proven wrong about all of the grumbling I've done over the past half decade about the reactionary minority poisoning the discourse on the left and systematically alienating a lot of the people who should be their allies, but unfortunately it was not to be.
|Caminante Nocturno - 2016-12-03 |
To be fair, the right never learned from any of their mistakes, either, and they won the election.
True this: but bear in mind, he did it just barely. Had he pivoted to the center after the primary it's likely we would have seen Reagan levels of support for this guy. But he didn't and still got lucky.
Lost by about 2 million, but was put in power by the electoral college, which is currently and historically a racist and classist institution designed to appease the slaveholding colonies by ensuring the white, landowning ruling class would hold a disproportionate (relative to their population - women and black people were not legally human at the time so they didn't count) amount of power in the federal government, so they would agree to join the union without being afraid of the more populated Northern states monopolizing power and interfering with the slavery industry.
To be fair though, ironically apart friom Florida and New Mexico the swing states are all up North.
Florida, the more north you go, the more south it gets!
|Potrod - 2016-12-03 |
April Fools, former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt is alive and well!
To me, this important man's legacy, is apparently being the punchline to a throw away Norm McDonald joke.
|magnesium - 2016-12-03 |
All the celebrities I like are "leftists", and I want to feel cool like them. But I don't want to have to start treating women and minorities like people, so...
|Ninehells - 2016-12-03 |
Oscar Ameringer once wrote “politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other.”
This is something Republicans have done very well, but not gently.
The Democratic Party has spent far too much time either trying to be conciliatory and inclusive, whereas Republican leaders have appealed to our clever little monkey brains with old fashioned StrengthFromAbove, with-us-or-against-us rhetoric for some time now. And you know what? It works. All over the world, countries are seeing the rise of more authoritarian leaders in the face of perceived economic uncertainty.
I am pessimistic enough to believe this will end badly, but comforted by the certainty that there is always a buck to be made by things ending badly.
(5 stars for the discussion. 1 star for the clip)
|John Holmes Motherfucker - 2016-12-03 |
Okay, two disclamers 1) I refuse to watch this video. 2) I am of more than one mind on this stuff, so I may contradict myself.
>>>They won't back the Democrats simply because they're Democrats, a.k.a. the nigger-lover party; in fact they'll instead support the party that would rather do away with minimum wages altogether.
Even the virulent racists are more complex than you're making them out to be. You don't know the other person, don't assume that you do. Confine your argument to an actual argument. Even a racist isn't wrong all the time, so calling someone a racist isn't an argument.
On Twitter, when I am, pardon the expression, "triggered", I'll block a person rather than respond. Most people who I have blocked on Twitter have never known it, or perhaps even that I exist. There's no telling how much ragey pointless internet bullshit I've avoided this way.
No, Homer, I don't block people for disagreeing with me, I block people for pissing me off. I know they're considered the same thing, but there was a time, I think it must have been in ancient Athens or something, when people could disagree without being fucking assholes about it.
NEOLIBERAL is a word I never saw until just a few months ago. I doubt if it actually means anything. Now the conservatives, are trying to get ALT-LEFT to catch on. Whatever, dude.
If the liberal Democrats showed up to vote in every election, professional politicians like Hillary Clinton would be comfortable moving to the left. Showing up to vote is really the answer to everything.
>>>Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys were telling the Bernie Bros that they needed to "compromise" - needed to support the neoliberal establishment, not because of ethics or policy, but for the sake of mere political expediency?
Okay, fuck you for putting "compromise" in quotes. Compromising is a real thing that really needs to be done. It's the real world business of politics, the "ART OF THE DEAL", if you will.
Also, I don't remember being able to tell those Bernie bitches ANYTHING.
|Waugh - 2016-12-03 |
everything is awful
wait, no. get the fuck away from me
Sexy Duck Cop
Too late I'm already in my undertale cosplay
let me be your goat mom waugh
join my fan club and get in line. people who think chris-chan is entertaining are despicable fucking trash
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