She's right.

but also joking aside, she explains it in the video.

So, it looks like you have a camera and a production budget....

Also, who the hell is she to decide what lesbians look like?

Not meant as a reply. But to answer your question, Simon, she doesn't want children exposed to porn that doesn't turn her on. Hope this helps.

That's what you took from that dude? Jesus.

Hah, no, I was joshing. I mean she make some irrefutable points, but she's grasping at straws. Of course pornography of cheesy lesbian stuff is the most widely available, it's consumed by a huge demographic - straight guys that like cheesy porn. She can't possibly be claiming whatever porn she desires is not available by the terabyte.

My issue with this video is that, like many rhetorical/hermenutical analyses, it assumes a particular rhetorical effect, criticizes it, but does not counter argue for why the given interpretation is the most salient. It assumes the viewer is helplessly ignorant and thus in need of the critique offered.

Is the problem Norman identifying a problem for all porn or merely lesbian porn? What assumptions must the naive lesbian viewer make in order to go astray in the ways Norman worries about? How prevalent is the naive lesbian viewer about sex and does she necessarily frequent typical porn sites to figure things out sexually? What are the stakes involved?

I think we can grant that Norman is right without having any real sense of the import of her argument and how much weight it should be given. In short, Norman could better motivate her concerns.

Also, I'll point out there is a nontrival amount of feminist literature on why we don't need porn at all and how it functions to silence women.

Yeah, but there's an equal amount of feminist literature (and if we filter by stuff written in the last decade, probably greater) that basically says we do need porn, that women profiting off their sexuality can be a good thing, but like all other forms of media, porn needs to be less stupid.

Who will win this epic battle? Well, all the anti-porn side has to do is get everyone in the world to stop liking masturbation, so my money's on the other ones.

I got some real lesbian porn when I worked at a thrift shop in the mid 2000s. It was a VHS tape produced, released and distributed by a lesbian book store in San Francisco in the late 90s. Porn made 100% by and for a lesbian audience.


It was 15 minutes of two women sticking needles through each other's nipples.

"simon666
Also, I'll point out there is a nontrival amount of feminist literature on why we don't need porn at all and how it functions to silence women."

This is true. There's also a nontrivial amount of Feminist literature arguing the opposite.

Often the side that's taken in that debate breaks down along ethnic and, especially, class lines.


Personally I think it needs to be part of a larger critique of capitalism, because it's not the act of making or viewing porn that is problematic, it is the industry. It's a workers'-rights issue first and foremost.

Anyway, depending on the survey somewhere between 30% and 45% of porn consumers are women today, so even if you take a hard line "all pornography is always harmful" view it's not like it's a clear cut case of women being exploited for a male audience anymore.

Hey, I like mild criticism. Fuck you!

This is a very mild overreaction given the current arguments on this site recently.

Still, I feel like this video doesn't merit a "fuck you" to the creator even if you don't like it. At most you should be bored or unsure about who this video is for.

Related: not actually everyone realizes how unrealistic is mainstream porn. A lot of teenagers trying sex for the first time only have what they learned from porn or porn references from non-porn sources (e.g. teen comedy movies). The result isn't always a horror, but often unsatisfying sex.

>>Still, I feel like this video doesn't merit a "fuck you" to the creator even if you don't like it.

That's sensible, I can dig it.

>>Related: not actually everyone realizes how unrealistic is mainstream porn is.

Yeah, I'm sure I didn't either. I think its a unilaterally, across the board growing experience. Ideally, one works through the clumsy-ness and pre-conceived notions they have. Hyphen - hyphen.

Hardly related note - bawbag, few poesters piss me off more consistently than you do. But, I truely admire you're sincerity and I'd wager IRL you are a huge pain in the ass, in the best way possible. I'm not being flippant, I look forward to future spats and reconciliations. :)

Your*.

"bawbag, few poesters piss me off more consistently than you do."

My work here is done! :)

hats of to bawbag for having the patience to yell at you idiots when you start to parrot some reactionary spiel you picked up from a sargon of akkad-video ;)

I can't speak for anyone else but in my case at least that is such a ludicrously inaccurate characterization of my political views that I don't even know where to start.

Who the hell is sargon of akkad?

One of my best friends has known a lot of gay porn performers over the years. According to him nearly all of them have severe, often debilitating emotional disorders (usually bipolar) and the majority also have serious meth habits, and the gay porn lifestyle is clearly actively harming them.

Not saying that's the case for all of them, of course, his sample size is probably like 20 and meth is really widespread in gay communities across New England in general.

That's a very stupid camp to side with. See,

A) In all likelihood, she lacks the equipment and skillset to act and/or direct in a porn film. So she needs to make this kind of plea to appeal to those who might have the capability.

B) One person can't single-handedly change an industry. So even if she did magically have all the required "stuff", she would *still* need others to help her balance out the porn offerings.

C) Her plea is hardly out-of-line. A while ago, some filmmakers started creating porn aimed at straight women. What's more, yet other filmmakers started creating porn aimed at straight guys who wanted something other than the "leering-use-women-for-sex" genre. And yet other filmmakers started creating porn for yet other audiences. And we're all richer for the greater variety.

Having said all that, my eyes rolled so hard when she claimed that lesbian sex was the most creative, best sex there is. Yeah, whatever lady. I'm glad you enjoy it, but your kink isn't any better than anybody else's. Well.... except for the furries. Everybody's kink is better than theirs. (I kid, I kid.... they're harmless. But I'd rather not imagine the smell after 2 furries finish.)

"she lacks the...skillset to act and/or direct in a porn film."

This claim could only be made by someone who has never seen a single second of porn in their entire life. Confirmed for pod person, notifying the authorities.

A) it's recorded fucking for people to mutter ridiculous shit under their breath to, whilst pulling or rubbing, let's not delude ourselves.

B) if there's a sufficient demand, the multi million dollar market will provide. I guarantee it already has.

C) most of her criticisms aren't out of line, but it's fucking mainstream porn for fuck sakes. Her approach is pretentious and hungry. Burger King isnt Whole Foods!


This is the cry baby left version of a pew dew pie twitch stream. Fuck the porn she's criticizing and fuck her for make a slick, annoying video about it.

I wasn't suggesting she act or direct a porn film, I was suggesting that nobody is stopping her from financing or convincing someone else to finance a production.

5 seconds on google proves this is already a decent sized genre, so, I don't get it. I can get behind the message that porn =/= reality, but I also think "seriously who cares? This is something everyone figures out because sometimes it's a nice thing to do sex in a way that doesn't ruin your chances at successive attempts."

D) I'm drunk, so disregard above in the unlikely case I'm wrong.

You're alright, 15th.

Likewise, budro.

Mass produced porn is gross and exploitative of its performers, but then what area of show business isn't? The real problem is that sex workers are so much more marginalized in our society than other show business types that they don't really have the resources available to protect themselves.


Being a porn performer in the 21st century is probably a bit like being a black musician in the 1950s, as far as workers' rights are concerned.

15th, you're giving Whole Foods too much credit up there.

RIP Mr. Hands :(

Fuck your pedestrian kink.

Gay horse on clown midget bondage porn or GTFO!

As a gay man, I can confirm that each and every one of us is ripped and tanned. We're all meticulously trimmed and oiled, and we're all versitile and we perform every sex act sequentially before cumming repeatedly in slow-motio from various angles.

I can only assume that straight sex might be similar.

Straight porn has taught me that I have a small penis and that I'd be wise to acquire a bus, a cab or a casting agency.

aaaaand stars.

Incest porn depicts a wildly unrealistic image of how incest actually is. We need real incest porn produced by real people who enjoy or are manipulated into having sex with their family members.

Your analysis of 3 and 4 seem right, though we could probably be more charitable and suppose her intended audience is lesbians such that the ego stroking is meant rhetorically to affirm and motivate members of the audience to produce the porn she, Norman, wishes to see.

Economics are a terrible, terrible model or human society and behavior.

And "supply and demand" is a facile economic construct that's closer to religious doctrine than science, but then that's true of economics in general more often than not.

Surely you don't honestly believe there ever was or will be a "free market" in the real world.

You might be swinging too hard in the opposite direction here, OZ.

Everybody knows about the relationship between capitalism and mass media pop culture. Even SJWs.

I only watched a little bit, and my ambien is kicking in. So a couple of quick questions before I fall out of my chair:

Is she blaming straight men for the lack of real lesbian porn? I think that's one of the few things you can't blame on straight men.

Is she looking to reflect the truth of women's lives in their own voices? Cause that sounds SO hot!

Lesbian sex is more "INVENTIVE"? I don't think so. No matter who you are, sex has already been invented.