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Desc:This is why we aren't getting any where.
Category:News & Politics, Educational
Tags:labor, Transgender, identity politics, Terfs, Radical Feminism
Submitted:Pillager
Date:10/12/18
Views:1336
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Comment count is 150
Marlon Brawndo - 2018-10-12
There is nothing so amusing as leftist social justice warriors turning on each other.
Gmork - 2018-10-12
It's amusing that the only force left to fight the idiocy and evil of the right has no solidarity? That's fucking dumb, but okay.

Marlon Brawndo - 2018-10-12
Haha. You think social justice warriors have any actual power or influence. That's so cute.

SolRo - 2018-10-13
The extremist left is even less influential than the extremist right, because the right wing nut jobs still vote while the left wing nut jobs refuse to vote until the perfect candidate runs

simon666 - 2018-10-13
Since Gramsci tried to out marx Marx, the left always tries to out move left of itself.

poorwill - 2018-10-13
like the retard below says, trans people make up ~0.5% of the population and it terrifies the brawndos of the world so much it's all they even think about. it's definitely an issue that's gained massive traction in mainstream culture despite its marginal status and polls say most people are broadly sympathetic, so 'sjws' obviously do have influence. of course, the far right seem to be winning all the major strategic/political victories globally but yeah.

bawbag - 2018-10-13
"leftist social justice warriors"

Fuck off back to 4chan.

Cena_mark - 2018-10-13
If transphobia did cost the Democrats dearly in 2016, then they would be better off throwing themselves the bus. I don't know if it's the right thing to do, but perhaps in the name of pragmatism.

bawbag - 2018-10-13
Also if you knew fucking anything, you'd know that TERFs are right-wing reactionaries hiding behind the term 'radical feminist', not "leftist" or "SJW".

Hazelnut - 2018-10-13
When did a bunch of asswipes from /pol/ decide it was worthwhile to raid PoeTV of all places? Reeks of desperation.

Gmork - 2018-10-13
At no point did I say "social justice warriors", so I'm not sure what you're talking about, unless you consider anyone who identifies as liberal/democrat an SJW, at which point I'll just ignore any future contributions of yours.

bawbag - 2018-10-14
Gmork the racist's persecution complex now means every reply on a thread is directed at him personally.

Gmork - 2018-10-14
What a nice non-sequitur, bawbag. I'm sure it makes sense on some other post, you just typed it into the wrong box, right?

bawbag - 2018-10-14
"non-sequitur" ooh look the racist is revving up his redditor debate rhetorical beyblade again.

"ad hominem +10!"

poorwill - 2018-10-15
gmork, nobody was replying to your dumb ass. not everything has to be about how bad you suck and how much you smell.

CIWB - 2018-10-12
God, who cares? Bullshit like this is the reason Donald Trump is president. Trans people account for what, 0.5 percent of the population? They frighten the hicks, and I’d happily toss them all under the bus for socialized healthcare and sane environmental policies. What is their grand civil rights cause anyway, the right to use the public bathroom of their preferred gender? Take a dump in whatever hole is open to you and shut the fuck up.
SolRo - 2018-10-12
It can be a safety issue for them. In a hick state the frightened hicks may get violent with a trans woman trying to use the men's bathroom due to laws forbidding them using the women's bathroom.

Marlon Brawndo - 2018-10-12
The bathroom thing was a non issue until a hick politician needed to create a wedge issue.

But I'm fucking sick of hearing about how men who get their dicks cut off are biological women. Those people really do need to shut the fuck up.

Ugh - 2018-10-13
"Take a dump in whatever hole is open to you and shut the fuck up."

oh in that case, say "ahhhhh"

bawbag - 2018-10-13
"I’d happily toss them all under the bus"

Dem manifesto right there.

Hazelnut - 2018-10-13
When did a bunch of asswipes from /pol/ decide it was worthwhile to raid PoeTV of all places? Reeks of desperation.

gmol - 2018-10-13
Christ. Transactivism seems to be such a popular anti-reality ideology that has such large scale uptake.

"This is why we aren't getting any where."

Indeed. It's the fault of females who are calling out silliness and bullshit where they see it.
bawbag - 2018-10-13
"anti-reality" says the fucking TERF scum.

Fuck right off.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-13
TERFturd has shitty opinion again more at 6

Hazelnut - 2018-10-13
When did a bunch of asswipes from /pol/ decide it was worthwhile to raid PoeTV of all places? Reeks of desperation.

gmol - 2018-10-13
The above is what people try to pass off as "reasoning" when they are uncomfortable with reality based ideas.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-13
Sure jordan peterson
tell us another one oh so rational science denier

Cena_mark - 2018-10-13
LOL, Suddenly RepubliKKKans start talking like "science" is important when it comes to dicks and vages. How about you fucks muster up some scientific curiosity for climate change?

bawbag - 2018-10-13
"reality based" is an unwittingly great way to put it, like when a movie says "based on a true story" or some shitty margarine is a "butter-based product".

Fantastic way to tell on your intellectual bankruptcy TERF.

Hazelnut - 2018-10-13
When did a bunch of asswipes from /pol/ decide it was worthwhile to raid PoeTV of all places? Reeks of desperation.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-13
they were always here and in the forum

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
Anyone with any sort of strongly-expressed point of view got banned in the great POEN meltdown because chet is a fragile little pisspuddle. And now this is the result. Hope he's proud.

gmol - 2018-10-13
'"Males are XX, females are XY" lollll you fucking toad, I can't believe you still said that unironically as an example of how informed you are without any apparent knowledge of chromosomal disorders.'

You have no understanding of the words 'male' and 'female'. Take some biology courses, read some scientific papers. Read about sex categories at the *Office of Research on Women's Health at the NIH*. There is handy infographic there to get you started. You have no comprehension of the disorders you are referring to. Those disorders have nothing to do with transgenderism. By deliberately conflating gender and sex you proceed to make false conclusions.

gmol - 2018-10-13
reposting in correct thread.

simon666 - 2018-10-14
bawbag - 2018-10-14
"Sex is essentially dichotomous"

Absolutely idiotic, once again proving you know fuck all.


Bawbag, please say more here. Why is it idiotic? Let's start from the layman's intuitive point of view there seem to be mostly males or females. Let's start building a common ground so we can an accurate and respectable conversation. In asking you to say more, I'm hoping you'll put some stakes in the ground as to: how sex difference is typically picked out by laymen; how medicine and science pick it out on a technical level, and maybe draw a connection between those two. Once we're in agreement on that then we can start with objections to either the layman's view or the scientific view and discuss how gender assignment attempts to track some physical characteristic.

gmol - 2018-10-13
Right, People who are gender critical must be Republicans and climate deniers.
You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-13
""""gender critical""

ha ha ha thanks thats HOUSE on my TERF newspeak bingo card

gmol - 2018-10-13
Yes, doubleplusgood one. Your trying frame "gender critical" as a "newspeak". The "newspeak" allegation has long been applied to the insanity of phrases like "transwomen are women".

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-13
only by TERFs and no one gives a sole fuck what those shitty insane bigots think

gmol - 2018-10-13
No. Transwomen are not women and that's ok.You are denying reality to think that it is true.

Spike Jonez - 2018-10-13
Sorry you don't know what gender is, you dumb pussy.

Hazelnut - 2018-10-13
When did a bunch of asswipes from /pol/ decide it was worthwhile to raid PoeTV of all places? Reeks of desperation.

SolRo - 2018-10-13
why do you care so much about trans women classification?

are you deathly afraid that if they're legally classified as women that some burly government agents will force you to have sex with them?

Mister Yuck - 2018-10-13
It's just face-palm obvious reality. There are a lot of differences between a trans-woman and a cis-woman. That's not hate speech.

SolRo - 2018-10-13
but why do you care?

bawbag - 2018-10-13
"reality"

*ignoring the consensus of the sciences on sex, gender, gender expression*

"ahhh i'm so rational and reasonable ignoring all the actual scientists in the field something something postmodern durrrrr cultural marxism"

It is hilarious to watch you guys regurgitate 1980s Reaganite anti-gay points at another minority and think you're not transparently bigoted as fuck.

gmol - 2018-10-13
"Sorry you don't know what gender is, you dumb pussy."

Please enlighten us. What do sex and gender mean?

gmol - 2018-10-13
"t is hilarious to watch you guys regurgitate 1980s Reaganite anti-gay points at another minority and think you're not transparently bigoted as fuck.
"

You aren't even reading anything bawbag. Do you understand that many gender critical people are lesbians. Do you understand why?

SolRo - 2018-10-13
BUT WHY DO YOU CARE?

gmol - 2018-10-13
"BUT WHY DO YOU CARE?"

Why do I care about what exactly?

SolRo - 2018-10-13
what trans people are labeled, called or what bathrooms they use...why do you give the slightest shit about something that has zero effect on you?

gmol - 2018-10-13
You don't know any females? Why would you want males to be included in the class of females for any reason? That doesn't seem insane to you? Are you aware of the disparities between males and female across the world? DO you understand why those disparities exist?

SolRo - 2018-10-13
are you neo-con idiots capable of answering a simple direct question? do you have to deflect any and every even slightly challenging line of inquiry like a scared 7 year old?

gmol - 2018-10-13
I've answered you directly and you answer by calling me a neocon. You seem to be incapable of working through position that requires a little critical thinking. What in the world makes you think I am a neocon?

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
Hell, it's not just regurgitated anti-gay talking points, it's regurgitated "race "science"" talking points.

"There are real differences between the races I mean between trans and cis women" well no shit, the question is whether you're thinking of the right things (you aren't because you're a fucking idiot) and whether they are at all meaningful to concepts of gender in society and how modern understanding of genetics, gene silencing/regulation and phenotypes really come into play -- which, on a day to day basis, they fucking well *don't*, as it has been since long, long before any modern concept of genetics. I can fucking well assure you that the ancients who were well aware of the existence of intersex people, and had a variety of ideas as to how to consider their identity, weren't adhering to your dumb arbitrary "law" of "XX is female, XY is male, period." (TERFs and other anti-trans bigots always want to appeal to a warped "traditionalism" while still claiming to ground their views in "modern SCIENCE", despite being pig-ignorant of both. Funny that)

It would help if any of you dumb bigoted fucks had any grasp of biology and sociology beyond your barely-passing marks in 6th grade general science and social studies, but fortunately that's where your preexisting biases come in handy: to fill in those annoying gaps! Fuck off.

gmol - 2018-10-13
You have no understanding of basic terms in biology. Your only mention intersex, something that you have no comprehension of, to muddy the waters. Intersex has nothing to do with transgenderism. You are just as anti-science as a creationist.

Males are XX, females are XY. That's pretty much how it works; anyone running a clinical study needs to know that. That's why sex matters; ask the Office of Research on Women's Health:

https://orwh.od.nih.gov/

Perhaps you think that the NIH is lying to you?

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
Oh my god just stop pretending to be informed. Stop pretending to be smart. Jesus horsefucking christ this is exactly what I'm talking about. You careen between a dipshitted ignorance of biology ("Males are XX, females are XY" lollll you fucking toad, I can't believe you still said that unironically as an example of how informed you are without any apparent knowledge of chromosomal disorders) along a dipshitted ignorance of premodern biological understandings. My point about intersex people was that even in premodern times there was an understanding that your Golden Look-Look Book level of understanding of gender wasn't entirely applicable in all cases.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
Point is this: Thousands of years before the discovery of chromosomes, "genetics" and "biology" had ZERO meaningful impact on sociological concepts of gender. NONE. And historical evidence indicates that some ancients' concepts were a lot more nuanced than modern regressives'. But on the day-to-day level, IT DIDN'T FUCKING MATTER. And so it should be today, because gender is in so many ways a social construct.

The "genetic" angle is only championed by regressives (the same sorts who had such a sterling mastery of evolution and climate science) because it flatters their simplistic world view and validates their biases.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
Missing sentence there: "They had concepts of anatomy, sure, which were challenged by intersex people and grappled with. But on a day-to-day level..."

gmol - 2018-10-13
still said that unironically as an example of how informed you are without any apparent knowledge of chromosomal disorders.'

You have no understanding of the words 'male' and 'female'. Take some biology courses, read some scientific papers. Read about sex categories at the *Office of Research on Women's Health at the NIH*. There is handy infographic there to get you started. You have no comprehension of the disorders you are referring to. Those disorders have nothing to do with transgenderism. By deliberately conflating gender and sex you proceed to make false conclusions.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
Jesus take the wheel. "Read some scientific papers" says the mewling dolt who can't even read plain English.

Restating once again: Genetics has, historically, not been a factor in how someone has been perceived as "male" or "female." For a variety of reasons, someone with divergent chromosomal characteristics could pass as "male" or "female" (or even hermaphrodite) depending on the cultural context and what might have been done to them at birth (crude surgical manipulation) or throughout life (passing).

Pretending that modern transphobia has anything to do with a concern for and deep knowledge of modern genetics is laughable. It just makes your sad little dicks feel weird that someone not assigned female at birth might actually want (for a variety of reasons far more complex than "XX" or "XY" -- seriously do you know nothing of gene regulation? of course you don't, stupid) to use a women's bathroom.

And that NIH site doesn't say what you think it does, dum-dum.

gmol - 2018-10-13
You are confused. You don't know about the concordance with genotype and phenotype.

"And that NIH site doesn't say what you think it does, dum-dum."

Oh it does say what I think. I know much better than you. Go ahead, show us a quote.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-13
"the concordance with genotype and phenotype"

HAHAHAHA oh my god! That is a perfect example of a dumb person trying to sound smart. I'm going to save that. Yep, you absolutely know NOTHING about gene regulation.

bawbag - 2018-10-13
"Do you understand that many gender critical people are lesbians"

You tried this one before, it failed to launch then too because wow, it turns out lesbians can be fucking hateful pieces of bigot shit too, who woulda thunk of it!?

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-13
fucken "xx and xy is the only reals" is baby-tier biology for youtube chuds u stupid fuckin TERF cancer
tugboat fuckin iced ur shitty argument already go back to pol and shit ur diaper over there about your feels before reals theories

Gmork - 2018-10-13
bagbaw pretending not to be bigoted is a fucking laugh riot

SolRo - 2018-10-13
he's racist against racists, right?

gmol - 2018-10-14
So far we have claims denying the essential dichotomous categories of sex, denial of genotype phenotype concordance, conflation of gender and sex, conflation of trans with intersex and that lesbians make anti-gay talking points and absurd appeals to tradition. Let's keep this crazy improv going!

Where is that quote from the NIH's ORWH on male and female?

bawbag - 2018-10-14
"So what if that's what non-whites go through?" - Gmork, the racist

Says it all really. Not surprised you chose this specific topic to chime in with your fucking stupidity though, given your history of shitty remarks about trans people.

As for gmol still trying to sound smart, FAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRT

gmol - 2018-10-14
Bawbag represents the same virulent strain of anti-thinking that drives things dangerous things like creationism, astrology and homeopathy. You can't possibly reason your way to principles for a fair society as long as you base your ideas on ideological nonsense.

bawbag - 2018-10-14
^this is a fucking hilarious amount of projecting from a TERF, a literal fucking science denier.

gmol - 2018-10-14
Oh really? Which science is that?

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-14
"conflation of gender and sex"

Yes, BY YOU, YOU INFINITE IMBECILE.

simon666 - 2018-10-14
The term "TERF" is used much in the way slurs are used: to signal that the referent is considered of lesser standing or morally inferior to the speaker using the term.

It's indicative that the innate capacity we have to enforce in group/out group distinctions can get activated no matter the moral framework one is using.

This is what bums me out about the left (and the right, but mostly the left). The left is good at identifying egalitarian issues, but doesn't yet have a robust enough discourse to guard against the non-egalitarian impulses of our biology.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-14
naw son TERF is a literal description

TERFs run a site called terfisaslur tho
the entire mission is 2 convince liberals
of their fucken newspeak bullshit and hide
behind the same phony semantic games
we see gmol up here trying on you people

gmol - 2018-10-14
No, I have definitely not conflated gender and sex, other posts here have.

The newspeak comes from transactivism not feminism.

Gmork - 2018-10-14
Apparently bawbag isn't smart enough to understand the context of what he's copy+pasting.

Bawbag and co. were basically saying this: It's okay to be racist and/or sexist if you have had a bad experience with people of that race or sex.

I said no it isn't, it doesn't matter what anecdotal bullshit you went through - advocating prejudice based on past bad experiences, applying them to strangers who haven't personally done you wrong, makes you one hundred percent in the wrong and makes your position indefensible.

But yeah, keep copy+pasting a contextless sentence that makes you feel like you're not the racist shitlord that you clearly are.

bawbag - 2018-10-14
"Bawbag and co. were basically saying"

Nope, nice try again for the 'get out of jail free' rewrite.

The remark: 'a stupid response from a nerd game company is EXACTLY like what non-white people go through in America/The world'

Gmork the racist replying: "So what if that's what non-whites go through?"

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=168258

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-14
boy i'd love to go around in circles trying to dissect all the misconceptions, scientific ignorance, and clumsy vocabulary usage that comes off like a fifth grader who just learned words like "concordance" and "dichotomy" but never used them in a sentence before, but i've been down this road way too many times before.

so i'll just sum up with something that really tickled me about a previous post:

"buhhh why is this guy trying to teach me about intersex people. anyway, about ThE DiChOtOmY oF GeNdEr"

lmao you fucking dunce

gmol - 2018-10-14
I know all of those words I am using much better than you do.

"ThE DiChOtOmY oF GeNdEr"

Again with the conflation of gender and sex. Again with tryin to somehow shoehorn intersex into the debate about trans. No one believes any of the nebulous definitions of 'gender' are dichotomous. Sex is essentially dichotomous. You'll never understand the basic of biology if you don't sit down and think about what words mean.

bawbag - 2018-10-14
"Sex is essentially dichotomous"

Absolutely idiotic, once again proving you know fuck all.

gmol - 2018-10-14
Keep denying reality and language. Sex is essentially dichotomous. You are insane to think otherwise.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-14
""""""Keep denying reality and language""
the TERF credo

simon666 - 2018-10-14
You Peeps, slurs function to define out groups often on moral grounds and you use TERF to show that gmol is not of your kind, that is to say, part of the out group.

Slurs have a descriptive component, which constitutes their group referring semantic core. They also have an evaluative component (depending how you slice thing sup it's either semantic or pragmatically determined). By saying TERF is descriptive or descriptively apt doesn't automatically disqualify TERF from being a slur.

In fact, whatever property you think TERF accurately describes only serves to pick out the property that fixes the referent of the term. But your *use* in this thread undoubtedly expresses your attitude that TERFs are the out group to your in group and that you do not like TERFs in virtue of being TERF.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-14
lmao

"gender is dichotomous"
"gender is dichotomous? lol"
"that's what i said, sex is dichotomous. also you're the one conflating sex and gender, not me"

lmaaaaaoooooooooo

gmol - 2018-10-14
It is unfortunate that explaining clear basic facts of the universe confirmed in common experience, in any elementary book, any clinical reasearch paper or any federal science based agency can be called a "credo" by nutters. Give us all a ride in your perpetual motion machine when you've finished it.

gmol - 2018-10-14
Now Commander Tugboat is just fibbing and attributing quotes to me that I did not make as can be verified by anyone with a search button. Jesus.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-14
""""""""""basic facts"""

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Spike Jonez - 2018-10-13
Weird, I keep coming across TERFs defending white supremacy. It's almost like TERFs are neither feminist, nor leftist.
dairyqueenlatifah - 2018-10-13
No, it's just that you don't understand what any of those labels you're throwing around actually mean.

But please, continue. Few things amuse me more than watching retarded lefties eat their own for not being retarded enough.

bawbag - 2018-10-13
STFU DQL you little nazi wannabe shit.

Spike, there's a huge crossover between them, always has been.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/02/08/radical-feminists-team-u p-with-right-wing-evangelicals-to-oppose-trans-rights-protections/

gmol - 2018-10-13
"STFU DQL you little nazi wannabe shit."

Some high quality wreasonin' you got going on there.

bawbag - 2018-10-13
Beats the fuck out of your absolutely fucking insane TERF shit you fucking bigoted pussy.

Go hide behind your phony pseudoscience excuses for being a fucking piece of rat shit some more. :)

Gmork - 2018-10-13
popcorn

bawbag - 2018-10-14
"So what if that's what non-whites go through?" - Gmork, the racist, 2018.

Gmork - 2018-10-14
Apparently bawbag isn't smart enough to understand the context of what he's copy+pasting.

Bawbag and co. were basically saying this: It's okay to be racist and/or sexist if you have had a bad experience with people of that race or sex.

I said no it isn't, it doesn't matter what anecdotal bullshit you went through - advocating prejudice based on past bad experiences, applying them to strangers who haven't personally done you wrong, makes you one hundred percent in the wrong and makes your position indefensible.

But yeah, keep copy+pasting a contextless sentence that makes you feel like you're not the racist shitlord that you clearly are.

bawbag - 2018-10-14
Gmork you're so fucking stupid you think THIS context makes your racist bullshit remark sound better? Let's look at that context shall we? From your own fucking comment history you utter fuckwit.

My remark: 'a stupid response from a nerd game company is EXACTLY like what non-white people go through in America/The world'

Gmork the fucking racist MORON: "So what if that's what non-whites go through?"

bawbag - 2018-10-14
"I said no it isn't, it doesn't matter what anecdotal bullshit you went through"

No, that's isn't at all what you fucking said you shitbag coward.

Nice try at a rewrite, guess it beats owning your racist, thoughtless fucking remarks though huh?

Chicken the Did - 2018-10-13
As an asexual I have to put up with enough shit. But it's not like the 'I am worried some assholes are going to hurt and or kill me at any time' kind of shit. 'Diet Coke transphobes' are the worst kind of scum because they enable a toxic and dangerous environment. And because they refuse to own it. It's always like 'You are reading too much into it!' or 'You can clearly see that I intended it to be blah-blah!' No, shitlips you know damned well what you meant.
simon666 - 2018-10-14
bawbag, you people are idiots, gmork, gmol: y'all aren't very charitable to one another.
gmol - 2018-10-15
It is unfortunate that you suggest that people that are sensible, that use sensible language should be (more) "charitable" towards those that do not use sensible language.

simon666 - 2018-10-15
Hi gmol. Here's an example of being more charitable: You might have responded to me by saying: I disagree that we weren't charitable enough. Please say more about how you think we weren't being charitable.

Instead you responded by made an evaluation about my suggestion--understandable in some ways given the attacks that you were subjected to above.

Being charitable would be taking a moment to recognize how morally fraught the subject is for You Peeps and bawbag around the issue then trying to find out what concerns they have about one who suggests sex assignment is biological. Both Peeps and bawbag also could have been more charitable and recognized there is at least some connection between sex and gender that resides in biology; or at least acknowledge that line of thinking, even if believed to be wrong or misguided, has a substantial following and does not necessarily entail being a moral monster.

The difficulty with being charitable is that often it means adjusting one's goal in the conversation to something else; the goal often is no longer making one's original point or defending one's position, but working towards an understanding, which is in part defined by what the other conversational participants can and want to go.

bawbag - 2018-10-15
"people that are sensible, that use sensible language"

This sort of bad faith shit, this is why TERFs deserve nothing but absolute scorn.

simon666 - 2018-10-15
bawbag, that's crazy ironic. One might wonder if you are even interested in helping people understand why you think your position is the most accurate/truthful or whether you are more interested in identifying those who are not part of your in group.

bawbag - 2018-10-15
I don't in believe singing kumbaya with bigots, no matter how "sensible" they think their own bigotries are.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-15
One good way to be charitable would be to not misrepresent people's positions! That would be a great start! Because neither I, nor anybody else with any familiarity with the science, was saying that there's not "at least some connection between sex and gender that resides in biology." Where we take issue is the belief (and it is a belief) in a severely reductive genetic determinism that drives the pseudoscientific arguments against transgenderism. Doesn't help that they don't even know anything about genetics; and there is an *awful* lot of biology that occurs in the stages between chromatin unwinding and Hurgus McPigfuck deciding he knows who should be in the next stall over from the daughter he's fucking.

It's bad-faith argumentation from ignorant alt-right idiots and Ive seen it far too often already. They deserve zero "charity".

gmol - 2018-10-16
You have no idea what you are talking about Tugs.

"Where we take issue is the belief (and it is a belief) in a severely reductive genetic determinism that drives the pseudoscientific arguments against transgenderism. Doesn't help that they don't even know anything about genetics; and there is an *awful* lot of biology that occurs in the stages between chromatin unwinding and Hurgus McPigfuck deciding he knows who should be in the next stall over from the daughter he's fucking."

There is a lot going in every cell all the time; that doesn't mean biological categories, sex and sexual *di*morphism are appropriate to describe as a "belief" or "severely reductive". Sex is a biological variable; we must know the sex of the cells we use in tissue culture, sex balance in preclinical with mice and factor along sex in any clinical analysis. The factors are dichotomous: male and female. Just go to the NIH or the CDC or the FDA or any literate biologist.

Transwomen are *males* who are not women, nonsense like the video tries to argue against this simple fact of reality. The vanishingly small portion of the human population that is neither male nor female has nothing to do with transgenderism. What in god's name are the "pseudoscientific arguments against transgenderism"? Who is "against" transgenderism? What does that even mean? If your a dude and like wearing a dress and long hair, more power to you; it's silly to suggest you are a female by doing so though.

bawbag - 2018-10-16
^ideological bigotry.

Fuuuck off you pseud piece of bigoted ratshit.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-16
Hi ok I asked an NIH scientist and she said that self-reported gender is a useful and valid categorization in research [1]; that "official" recommendations for categorization necessarily lag way behind the science as scientists hash out the exact parameters and validate the measures; and that accounting for gender in addition to sex can lead to important health insights like how gender, though not biological sex, can be predictive of poor outcomes after acute coronary syndrome in young patients[2] (and recent findings that there are certain neurological correlates to gender but not to biological sex) ... and oh yeah, that transwomen are women (Table 2 in [1]).

She also said that thinking because there are two categories that something is "dichotomous" shows a lack of knowledge of both science and English, and that you probably got a dick like a squashed inchworm.[3]

Wow, harsh words, but she's the scientist.

[1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2577142
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26791057 (I used the PubMed link because the comments are interesting in their own way; one states "In 2016, the National Institutes of Health Strategic Plan underscored the need to understand sexual and gender minorities beyond binary categories of male or female and man or woman..."; another suggests that *neither* sex nor gender be used, or at least without a careful formulation of hypotheses -- but both of these comments reflect the viewpoint that both sex and gender are far too complex for easy two-point categorization in the context of health research)
[3] personal communication

gmol - 2018-10-16
Sex As a Biological Variable (SABV) is an overarching modern principle of clinical research that comes out of the NIH. There is nothing lagging about it:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S00319384173 02585


You don't have the background to understand that paper but you can see the sex is always described as male or female throughout that entire document (just like any other credible source). You would understand the same if you actually read the JAMA article you linked (I read it long ago). When you take your first statistics class you will learn sex is a dichotomous variable:

https://www.spss-tutorials.com/what-is-a-dichotomous-variable/

Gender has no such corresponding principle. Gender doesn't really mean anything specific (read the JAMA article you linked), it is a nebulous term that can mean self reported sex or something as vague as personality. I know the heart disease study on gender and it just uses gender to mean behavior that are stereotypical to males and females. No one doubts behavior affects health, it's pretty silly to make a claim on gender by categorizing them as masculine and feminine. Many males and females engage in masculine and feminine behavior.

Come back in a few years when you've passed intro bio and stats.

Caminante Nocturno - 2018-10-15
Looks like we got a real TERF war going on in the comments.
cognitivedissonance - 2018-10-15
Gotta pull your own weight if you want party support at the cost of votes. Democracy is a real deal, and that means it has to translate into electing people. If your pet issue is causing an entire party to sag, well, you might have to be the one to step back. Either you're in for democracy as an ideology, and vox populi, vox dei, or you're not. I feel for your personal liberation issues but if it's not selling in the flyover states, maybe you could play the martyr just this once.
bawbag - 2018-10-15
"If your pet issue is" not being denied medical/psychological care critical to your survival, or not being denied your humanity, then there is no more 'convenient season'.

This is part of the central problem with Dems, who insist if minorities just wait another 4 years, and another and another they'll get right on that, but not during a mid-term, or during a run-up to a presidential election, or ever because of 150 other reasons.

cognitivedissonance - 2018-10-15
Democracy is a failed ideology.

spikestoyiu - 2018-10-15
These are cool comments
memedumpster - 2018-10-15
Hi, readers of poe, memedumpster here of Team Memedumpster. You may remember me from such classics as "goddammit, I wish memedumpster would die already" and "every time memedumpster posts, I miss Waugh." I am here today because, like you, I read the above comments and was immediately disappointed that no one arguing on either side ever watched Bill Nye The Science Guy's reboot show, which explained gender and sex based on intersectional doctrine. Allow me to lay out the going cult-war rules of engagement over sex and gender.

Most people, unless a genetic anomaly happens, are born with a sex. This is like basic nature stuff and we can't really do anything about it without scientific understanding. Sometimes a person is born ambiguous in this department and the doctors at hand will try and cement over that with some kind of gender assignment half-measure. We have determined as a species that maybe they shouldn't do this to people due to other problems that can cause psychologically. Thus we decided to be nuanced about it and start a culture war. Right now, the Olympics pays the most money to do the most science on what is and is not a bio-male or bio-female, and no one ever references them because no one cares except performance based sports that cost and make tons of money.

Next comes how you feel inside about yourself and your role as a sex'd human. This usually runs in line with your sex, but it doesn't have to, and for those who have a different feeling about themselves than their sex implies, it can get really fucking rough. Regardless of how we're rigged up by nature to plumb out new humans, we have to live in our own heads with our own identities, shared or not, so getting this to a tolerable or comfortable level is more important, really, than how the outside perceives us due to biological sex. As a society, we are just now trying to make up a way to do this as we all go along, with very little science to help us (since psychology and psychiatry wasted a century of our time with a scam instead of scientific method).

The third part is gender expression, or how you want to demonstrate to the world your gender identity. This is a choice and doesn't have to remotely align with your natural sex or internal identity. You can be as fake or real in this as you want to be, but most people will seek a comfortable expression that amplifies what they like about themselves more than mask what they don't. Those who wear fake-ass masks constantly, or have no sense of internal identity, will use this expression as a weapon (identity politics) to attack the expressions of others.

So now everyone is at war as to whether you have to rep your sex in society with others, or whether you can substitute your gender expression in its place. Some say sure why not, some say noooooooooo, but muh bathrooms!

Often, the ones who say no are sensitive to people misrepresenting themselves for nefarious reasons, and even though we are all capable of misrepresenting over anything at all, sex and gender trigger them because they are sexual authoritarians. The control of sex and gender is such an old aspect of tyranny that it may predate forms of government not based on religion. It doesn't even pass the dystopia test, since it denies people bread and circuses in consumer grade gender expression.

Personally, I know these lesbians that started a church to stick it to the transtrenders (those who random-roll their gender expression for fun while not fucking with biosex or internal identity issues) by outlawing men and forming and stating in doctrine that they will indoctrinate girls into lesbianism. I called them sexist, misandrist, heterophobic, the whole line of alt-centrist NPC dialog. I hate ironic bigots more than the real deal.

On the other hand, a lot of transtrenders are misogynists, and will go gender-weasel in order to be a bigot, and no trans person who has taken steps to alter their biology or deal with internal identity are equivalent to those shitwolves. Most of those arguing compare the trenders to the trans, and they are no more the same than the UN Security Council is to a poeTV comments section.

The reason the gendertrenders are the most seen by tired-of-this-shit society is that gender expression is the one you put out there. Those who deal with sexual and internal identity issues are often silent, or silenced, by those who want to yell at the trenders on the Internet.

At the end of the day, I think we need to keep our priorities in order. Trans people are worth compassion, and their issues often don't show signs, or draw attention to itself. They go through life silently and surrounded by a culture where the people speaking for them are the worst, but only representation they are getting. They are not the transogynists gender-weasels, nor their mirror image, the TERFs. They are uninvolved in the culture war and the people who piss off the transphobes are just as harmful to them as the transphobes, because they give no fucks about anything other than weaponizing the issue.

Trans people are a'ight, poeTV, but when some little gender-weasel comes up and says "I'm a bottle of Vicks Vape-O-Rub and my personal pronoun is 'you're raaaaaaaaaaacist'" or some TERF goes on and on about how rapists can't rape unless they get to wear a dress with a penis, it's okay to tell them to fuck off, you're telling them for trans people too, as well as the rest of us.

Also, poeTV is worse than actual progressive sites for discussing this issue, which is shocking considering how many progs are here. Surely one of you fucking Christians read a Bible once, amirite?

Anyway...

Prepare for trouble!
And make it double!
To protect the world from devastation!
To unite all peoples within our nation!
To denounce the evils of truth and love!
To extend our reach to the stars above!
Gmork!
Bawbag!
Team Memedumpster blasts off at the speed of light!
Surrender now, or prepare to fight!

TL;DR
Trans is good people.
Gendertrenders is bad people who consume these issues irresponsibly.
TERFs aren't helping anyone except their own collapsed identity disorders.
Slowpoke is the best Pokemon.
poorwill - 2018-10-16
i scrolled down through all these comments and your own vanity-published novel just to tell you to go fuck yourself

Bort - 2018-10-22
Hey meme. Yeah, it's tough to get over what the people here have become, or revealed themselves to be. When it comes to LGBTQ issues, it really is as simple as: whatever people are feeling in terms of sex / gender / attraction / presentation, so long as they practice consent, it's fine. Respect that they are where they are and how they are, and be decent enough to apply the terminology they feel comfortable with. Couldn't hurt to do a little research -- that Bill Nye episode was solid -- but if you start with simple respect rather than "why should I have to learn a whole new pronoun?" you'll be most of the way there.

You know how people have argued for decades now that people are gay because they were born that way and there's no changing it ... ? It may be more complicated than that. I predict we're going to start seeing is more fluidity, where some people are not permanently in one gender / presentation / attraction combination, but drift within certain bounds. My guess is, back in the day, if you could get by as something approaching cishet most of the time, that's what you did; it meant vastly less wear and tear than announcing that you're starting to feel kinda gay again. Identifying as gay was for those who simply couldn't do straight. But now that respect for and understanding of LGBTQ issues are more widespread (in some places anyway), I suspect we're going to see people who discover that they are comfortable as basically cishet at some times in their lives, and at others they find themselves walking into other parts of the spectra. Which is fine! They're still born that way, it's just that "that way" is best described as "fluid" rather than "gay" or "straight". But, what counted as a forward-thinking attitude 30 years ago, might start looking a little dated soon. Progress!

gmol - 2018-10-16
Sex As a Biological Variable (SABV) is an overarching modern principle of clinical research that comes out of the NIH. There is nothing lagging about it:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S00319384173 02585


You don't have the background to understand that paper but you can see the sex is always described as male or female throughout that entire document (just like any other credible source). You would understand the same if you actually read the JAMA article you linked (I read it long ago). When you take your first statistics class you will learn sex is a dichotomous variable:

https://www.spss-tutorials.com/what-is-a-dichotomous-variable/

Gender has no such corresponding principle. Gender doesn't really mean anything specific (read the JAMA article you linked), it is a nebulous term that can mean self reported sex or something as vague as personality. I know the heart disease study on gender and it just uses gender to mean behavior that are stereotypical to males and females. No one doubts behavior affects health, it's pretty silly to make a claim on gender by categorizing them as masculine and feminine. Many males and females engage in masculine and feminine behavior.

Come back in a few years when you've passed intro bio and stats.
Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-16
"Overarching modern principle" ahahahahaha you aren't the tiniest bit equipped to interpret what you see. It's a policy guideline to enhance research design and generate better science, and of fucking COURSE it lags behind the science showing it was necessary in the first place. In addition to the past research showing where old paradigms broke down, it grew out of years of working groups and collaborations in order to come to a consensus guideline.

I mean jesus christ, of course the policy follows the science. Years and years of CAREFUL science. And it will get revised and refined, just as reporting on race always is. (Unless you think they got it right the first time and the current demographic categories are fully sufficient for, say... hemophilia studies)

And that's for the concept of *biological sex,* the basic concept of which which humans have known about since, oh, *ever.* Imagine what they'd do with a more nuanced view of gender, which is still in its infancy? (And yes, kudos on the slightly different means of categorizing gender. Figuring out which metrics are most valuable is all part of the process! Or at least, kudos to whoever you copied it from on /pol/.)

(Also lolllllll at the baby-level link to a statistical software program tutorial. Good job; really convinces me of your sophisticated understanding and familiarity with the literature. Definitely trumps the work by actual current scientists.)

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-16
Shorter words: the new SABV policy guideline in no way excludes gender as a useful biological variable.

It does not deny the validity of how people self-identify.

It does not exclude transgender women from definitions of "women" from future research.

The JAMA paper I cited? Cited by the ORWH Director as an "Issue of the Future" in summing up the first year of the SABV policy: https://orwh.od.nih.gov/about/director/messages/one-year-into-nih- sabv-policy

gmol - 2018-10-17
You ain't gonna be passing those intro courses any time soon. Go for understanding the "baby-level" links before you worry about the more complicated stuff.

bawbag - 2018-10-17
Please, you can't even fucking hit reply without screwing it up multiple times in the same thread, you sad TERF rat.

Get the fuck out of here with your phony TERF semantic bullshit, go run in traffic.

gmol - 2018-10-17
Basic science is being equated to "semantic bullshit". Well done. You may want to stay away from dangerous ideas like arithmetic and chemistry bawbag. Stick with numerology and alchemy.

bawbag - 2018-10-17
"basic science" would that be your conflating stats with the biology you continue to prove you know FUCK ALL about you TERF rat? Yeah, nice try again with semantic bullshit you fucking bigoted fraud.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-17
lollll

*brags about deep familiarity with peer-reviewed literature*
*cites first google hit he can find to justify the nonsense phrase he babbled out because he wanted to sound smart*
*beats chest, runs off squealing*

and gmol still got a dick like a stale raisin[1]


REFERENCES:
[1] Bard's Tale III: The Thief of Fate Clue Book

gmol - 2018-10-17
Tugs,
You've never done anything with statistics. You still don't understand the word "dichotomous'. You don't know what a categorical variable is. It isn't clear you know how to look up what those things mean with a search engine.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-17
haha you are a barking nothing. come try to talk to talk science to me again when you've mastered the basics of the bard's tale iii code wheel

poorwill - 2018-10-17
all my spirit stars for commander tugboat
sit down glol

gmol - 2018-10-18
Keep trying to pretend your know anything about biology or high school level statistics bawbag; you aren't fooling anyone.

bawbag - 2018-10-18
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gmol - 2018-10-16
You ain't gonna be passing those intro courses any time soon. Go for understanding the "baby-level" links before you worry about the more complicated stuff.
Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-17
what's the impact factor on that software manual, dum-dum

gmol - 2018-10-18
People don't talk about "impact factors" when they don't know chapter 1 definitions of things. You've never calculated a statistic on anything, you make that very obvious.

gmol - 2018-10-18
Perhaps tugs really is search engine impaired. Here is how you google a set of words, surrounding them in quotes ensures that the matches will be exact. Give it a try:

1. Go to http://www.google.com

2. In the "search box", type in (with quotes) "sex is a dichotomous variable".

3. What do you find? Note the various introductory course URLs and journal articles down in your copy book.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
fucking die terf

gmol - 2018-10-18
Biology denialism is the new flat earth. What makes you so angry about reality that you wish death upon others?

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
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gmol - 2018-10-18
Tugs is going not going to learn how to google if you try to obfuscate their google tutorial peeps. Let people learn things, you may want to listen in on the lesson yourself.

You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-18
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gmol - 2018-10-19
These posts have just about as much sense in them as your other ones. Learn to think critically, you may find it useful one day.

Old_Zircon - 2018-10-17
ATTN: Hazelnut

Pretty sure they're coming from bo-ne.ws not /pol/

If you aren't familiar, bo-ne.ws is kind of Bizarro PoeTV, it's where the other half of the big Poe-News schism went as far as I understand (I rarely went on Poe-News).


Think of it as "beta-cuck /pol/"
bawbag - 2018-10-17
OK, which of the posters here do you think are (paraphrasing) 'bonews plants' exactly?

Genuinely curious.

Old_Zircon - 2018-10-17
Your mama.

bawbag - 2018-10-17
They don't give her time off from the mortuary.

Commander Tugboat - 2018-10-17
the only "schism" was between interesting vocal people banned for not kissing chet's ass and boring nothings who don't stand for anything

now poetv has /pol/scum and terfs. maybe a handful of newcomers with a decent point of view but not enough numbers to drive out the stupid and vile like there used to be. congratulations, a well curated community

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