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Comment count is 39
Hazelnut - 2020-12-03

The title and description are up to Cracker’s usual honesty. Wimborne-Idrissi was not ‘kicked out of Labour’, she was suspended pending investigation. And it wasn’t for being the ‘wrong type of Jew’ whatever that means; it was for her behaviour in meetings that undermined needed reform.

Yes, you can belong to a given ethnicity and still be an obstacle to ending racism against that ethnicity—just look at any number of Trump appointees.

It’s worth taking a look at the mural in question that Wimborne-Idrissi, Corbyn, Crackersmack and SolRo are defending: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism -open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour


Crackersmack - 2020-12-03

I actually read that article and I am personally shocked at the extreme anti-semitism displayed by those that believe that any depiction of a banker is a reference to Jewish people. Because that's the assumption you have to make to believe that the mural is question is somehow anti-semitic.

And that's it? That's your proof that Corbyn is anti-semitic? Because he agreed that an artists mural shouldn't be taken down over blatantly disingenuous criticism?

Clearly you didn't watch this video. This woman blows away your dishonest bullshit.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-03

Said the lying zero-credibility troll.


Crackersmack - 2020-12-03

oooh you're mad


simon666 - 2020-12-03

Some of the men featured in mural certainly have a large facial feature. And it's not clear to me that you can actually reference some cabal of either bankers or "controllers" or whatever without participating in antisemitic conspiracy. Figuratively speaking, don't see a lot of difference between the imagery in this mural and what's communicated when people allege that George Soros is doing some nefarious thing or other.

So we seem to have a situation in which: 1) The artist may or may not have intended to use antisemitic imagery to communicate some kind of class justice message; yet 2) the effects of the mural's imagery are to evoke antisemitic reading/interpretations in a great many of people.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

See also the quote from the artist himself: “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are” That’s straight up 1939 libel — and SolRo’s approach to Soros.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

Little disingenuous for Cracker & SolRo to pretend the mural has nothing to do with Jews when the creator is literally boasting in print that it’s an attack on Jews.


Crackersmack - 2020-12-04

Thanks for clarifying that the artist was depicting specific people instead of making a caricature of Jewish people in general, thereby undermining your own weak argument.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

Only Crackersmack could choose to misread it that way.


simon666 - 2020-12-04

On the most charitable reading (perhaps a stretch), the artist thinks the Rothschilds et al are demons in virtue of their class position, but even so, and as I think said earlier, in speaking or representing Jews with the language/imagery of antisemitic tropes, the artist is participating in antisemitism.


SolRo - 2020-12-03

Basic human rights are anti Semitic!


Hazelnut - 2020-12-03

Said nobody, but cute distraction.

After 2020 and BLM, most of us understand that snide blanket denialism of the existence of racism is really fucking racist.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-03

Then again SolRo took the cops’ side against the BLM protesters through the whole summer, so at least he’s consistent.


simon666 - 2020-12-03

SolRo: I think the issue is using antisemitic imagery/messaging to advocate for human rights.

Suppose someone wants to criticize the Chinese government for its treatment (genocide?) of the Uyghurs by creating a mural where people exaggerated asian eyes and buck teeth are walking on the backs of Uyghurs.

Both the mural and the treatment of the Uyghurs would be morally wrong.


SolRo - 2020-12-04

Simon; the thing that’s happening though is that right wingers and isreal hardliners are weaponizing the term to smear their opponents, it’s completely disingenuous.

In this case it’s going down that slippery slope of dictating that any white person being depicted in a negative way cannot be a banker, nor have a caricatured face with big features because by the law of universal outrage it must be assumed the image is targeting Jews and the artist is explicitly anti Semitic.

Evil bankers + caricature big nose = artist hates Jews is a very large leap to make.

If we go down that route we’ll end up at a spot where no one is allowed to criticize the financial industry lest they be branded a Jew hater and have their lives destroyed.


And it is just a political cudgel, as evidenced by the many “very concerned” idiots dog piling on any Jewish person that dares speak out against Israel, declaring them anti Semitic “self hating Jews”


SolRo - 2020-12-04

Also will have the effect of putting every actual Jewish banker beyond criticism or accountability because apparently it’s anti Semitic to assume Jewish people are humans and are just as fallible and prone to corruption as all other people.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

So SolRo, like Crackersmack, says Jews are just crying wolf. Guess I’m a “right winger and israeli hardliner” along with the Guardian, the Labour Party, and the Rockland County synagogue.

SolRo here is the guy in a MAGA hat whining “you can’t even criticise a Black guy any more or they’ll call you racist.” In 2020 we see through that shit.

I could explain again why that’s bullshit, but the Holocaust Remembrance Center does it better: https://youtu.be/JRjSFtOGmNc


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

“Evil bankers + caricature big nose = artist hates Jews is a very large leap to make.”

The artist literally boasted that he was attacking Jews. SolRo is aware of this.


casualcollapse - 2020-12-04

Look, you're both right... Not everything is so black and white

Oh my God

I'll see myself out


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

I’ll certainly agree that some people cry antisemitism (and every other flavour of racism) inappropriately. I’d sure love to see SolRo distancing himself from the worst antisemitic groups and libels instead of embracing them.


ashtar. - 2020-12-04

Listen, if you don't have the same exact position on the Israeli Palestinian conflict as Donald J. Trump, you're anti-semitic.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

Said nobody but Ashtarsmack and SolRo


ashtar. - 2020-12-04

Excuse me, you dropped your hat.
https://tinyurl.com/y4kuqdrx


casualcollapse - 2020-12-04

Ew, that hat is so cringe it makes make America great again sound practically saintly

In either case I don't wear hats


ashtar. - 2020-12-05

I'm really hoping we can stop with the memeing of MAGA now that Trump lost. We won't, probably, but I can still hope.

Hey Hazelnut, which made your dick harder, when Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem–giving a huge middle finger to any possible two state solution–or when Trump recognized the illegally occupied Golan Heights as part of Israel?

Can you even get hard without seeing a brown child sleeping fitfully in the rubble of his bulldozed hovel? https://tinyurl.com/yyggowo7


Hazelnut - 2020-12-06

Remindrr that Ashtar / Crackersmack is a zero-credibility troll who has boasted several times that he doesn’t believe his own bullshit


ashtar. - 2020-12-06

Do you think America's border wall to keep out dangerous brown muslims should be bigger and better than Israel's West Bank Barrier, or should we just copy their wall?


ashtar. - 2020-12-06

Do you think that US snipers who shoot and kill children protesting our wall should be given more or less than a month of community service? https://tinyurl.com/y3yw7rd2


Hazelnut - 2020-12-07

Since I fully support both Palestinian statehood and the boycott movement, I see no reason to give this troll the attention he craves


ashtar. - 2020-12-07

Wouldn't you say that someone who spent all their energy trying to stop the first serious Jewish candidate for president and spreading weird conspiracy theories blaming his supporters for all the ills in the world is kind of an anti-semite?


casualcollapse - 2020-12-04

I knew it was you crackersmack but I voted up anyways because I knew the comments would be fun to read


Hazelnut - 2020-12-04

I upvoted for the same reason. (Contrast with SolRo downvoting both Luciana Berger and Auschwitz Remembrance.) It’s not a fun conversation but better to have it than brush it under the carpet.


simon666 - 2020-12-04

"Evil bankers + caricature big nose = artist hates Jews is a very large leap to make."

Maybe you say this just because *you* don't associate those caricatures/stereotypes/tropes of Jews with antisemitism, but they really are. So this isn't any white person being depicted in a way. It is white people (do Jews consider themselves white? The Nazis sure didn't nor the proud boys) who the artist seems to have explicitly said are Jews, per Hazelnut's quote above.

We can be careful of falling down the slippery slope (that's good!) while also admitting that some "white people depicted as big nosed bankers" imagery is in fact antisemitic.

Your worry doesn't really preclude us from calling any such imagery antisemitic, what it does is give us reason to double check our reasons before drawing a conclusion, for we might be wrong! But in this case the worry you raise is outweighed by the evidence, I'd say.


SolRo - 2020-12-04

-Some- of the caricatures resembling the mural are certainly meant to be antisemitic. What we’re moving towards is assuming that -all- such caricatures are inherently antisemitic and intentionally hurtful.

Most of the people making these claims are some flavor of Meghan McCain, ie non-Jewish people white-knighting for Israel to bash their political opponents. Most of these people themselves are at least mildly antisemitic in private.

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=174893

If the GOP suddenly started muck raking for any instance of leftist not being perfectly politically correct towards black people in the last 40 years, would you buy their bullshit?


Hazelnut - 2020-12-05

Amazing. He admits it’s antisemitic and still supports it, why again? “Slippery slope?” Imagine saying that about any other race or ethnicity.

Fuck that shit. Punch Nazi faces.


Hazelnut - 2020-12-05

Jesus Christ he’s even resorting to bitching about “political correctness”


simon666 - 2020-12-05

"-Some- of the caricatures resembling the mural are certainly meant to be antisemitic. What we’re moving towards is assuming that -all- such caricatures are inherently antisemitic and intentionally hurtful."

This is just a recapitulation of your originally slippery slope worry, which I think I adequately addressed above. We can attend to the worry, while still accurately identifying actual antisemitism; this isn't an edge, the evidence of artist intention points to antisemitism.

"Most of the people making these claims are some flavor of Meghan McCain, ie non-Jewish people white-knighting for Israel to bash their political opponents. Most of these people themselves are at least mildly antisemitic in private."

This is neither here nor there. Your initial concern, at least as expressed, was that there was a risk about calling ambiguous pieces of art racist merely because those pieces of art featured content which could be construed as antisemitic/racist. You took the risk of calling some balls as strikes as concerning, for if we start calling some balls as strikes we risk a slippery slope where all balls are called strikes. Of course some balls are called strikes in baseball and some strikes as balls. But there is no slippery slope risk there and I'm not sure why there should be one here. Further, given the evidence of the artist's intentions, this doesn't even seem to be an edge case.

If your root issue is that Meghan McCain types are confused/disingenuous/closeted antisemites, then your worry about a slippery slope doesn't address this issue, at least not directly. You should be arguing against Meghan McCain and whatever she may have said or done, not some story an antisemitic mural.

You can obviously both: Care about the Palestinians and other oppressed people AND defend against antisemitism. These are not mutually exclusive positions, thankfully


exy - 2020-12-05

Save yo pearls for humans, simon


Hazelnut - 2020-12-05

I really appreciate those pearls. Especially this part: “You can obviously both: Care about the Palestinians and other oppressed people AND defend against antisemitism. These are not mutually exclusive positions, thankfully”

That’s me! I care about Palestine, I support a two state solution and the boycott movement. I also, with no inconsistency, think antisemitism is fucking wrong.


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