How about just quit giving them billions in $ and weaponry. Oh, and quit shooting down every UN resolution that isn't pro-Israel.

how bout we do all that and then bomb the shit out of them

move to Israel and get some rockets shoved up your ass by Syrian partisans funded by religious nazis who want their country back, jackass.

The nazi's just want their country back? Wouldn't you just give it to them and leave them alone?

Arabs don't actually care about Palestinians. Syria especially, since they've been raping Palestine for centuries. They just don't like the fact that it isn't their back yard anymore. They (as in their government) would sooner bomb the fuck out of every Palestinian on the planet if it meant getting rid of Israel. Also why would Iran invest money in supporting Sunni-Palestinian-Syrian Hamas when they are also investing money in killing Sunni Iraqis? You can gauge how much Arabs actually care about Palestinians by how Palestinian refugees are treated. There is no excuse for breaking a cease fire by firing rockets from positions populated by innocent children.

The idea that Israelis are URGGG EVIL and delights in the murdering of children does not make sense. They want to be left alone. They have been beating the shit out of the New York lunatics who go there attempting to start kibbutzes on Palestinian land, and those orthodox deserve it as much as Hamas deserves to be leveled to the ground.

Obviously this is way way more complicated than anything that can be summarized within a few pages of comments, but it drives me crazy when I read whiny liberal college kids insinuate that Israel is evil. I also find it interesting, culturally, that people like cena mark now represent Israel, when 20 years ago people from the Republican party were swift to condemn CHRIST KILLING ZOG CABALISTS. Sure, that element is still there on the right, but now it's on the left too. The GOP propaganda machine and the fundie churches have been very good in making Israel America's Best Friend #1 in the eyes of the idiotic right. For some reason it's fashionable among the Chomskyite left to hate Israel right now. I just think that's fucking retarded.

Israel isn't "evil," they do want to be and should be left alone (barring intervention to prevent humanitarian crises), and they should be recognized by Arab nations as a legitimate state. That said, as an American, I object to the extent of the Israeli lobby's influence in Washington. They are more or less given a blank check and an unqualified blessing for whatever political and military action they choose to pursue, for better or for worse.

As a subscriber to the ideals of Western democracy, I also object to the way Israel portrays itself and is portrayed as a bastion of Western enlightenment and humanitarianism in the "backwards" Middle East. Israel's development as a nation, like America's, can hardly be classified as unblemished. However, unlike America (for the most part), Israel has not condemned its own historical malfeasances (Irgun, Break the Bones Strategy, ethnic cleansing, Zionist cooperation with the Nazis, Zionism itself, Mossad torture methods, etc.), and these elements are often glossed over or entirely left out of the account of the conflict that reaches the American public.

Finally, as a human being, I object to the manner in which one of the most incomprehensible humanitarian disasters in the history of Western civilization has been transformed by certain organizations into an instrument through which to shame and distract other nations into giving them what they want. I am also deeply disturbed by the fact that these people who have suffered so terribly and so recently would still proceed in these delicate matters in such a reckless and indiscriminate manner.

Israel deserves--like any developed nation--to be criticized intelligently. There is an awful lot of screaming, spittle-flinging, and intellectual intimidation on both sides of this issue. But ask yourselves: who is, and claims to be, the better and bigger "man?"

As I said, this issue is exceptionally complicated, with many hands in the same pot. I do not defend all of Israel's actions. I do know that very few people who attack "Zionism" actually know where it came from, what forms it takes (there is spiritual Zionism, non-state Zionism, the philosophical concept of Zionism, and also many different strategies for creating a permanent homeland for a consistently endangered culture) and how it changes.

What angers me is the blase indulgence by non-Israelis who obviously have sympathies for the "little guy" but seem to forget that Israel IS THE LITTLE GUY. They are also a secular state, not a "Jewish" state. They have no interest in destroying "Muslims." Many people would like to see Israel become a smoking ruin on all sides. Some states, like Egypt, have learned to deal with them. Other states use them as a way of manipulating the passions of their own people. The Saudis certainly love Palestinians, but treat them like slaves. Arafat, in a whim, decided to EXPEL 30,000 Palestinians simply because he felt a disagreement with Arafat. Kuwaitis, who love Americans dearly (don't hear much about how terrible they are, though) forcibly evicted thousands of Palestinians after the Gulf War, many of them became servants, almost slaves, to Kuwaiti households. If Hamas loves Palestine so much, why doesn't Lebanon let them settle? They are surrounded and used as pawns, kept at gunpoint in sprawling filthy internment camps, and then the finger is pointed at Israel. Israel, at least, provides AID to Palestinians, not to mention jobs. With the exception of Egypt, Palestinians are tools of ruthless autocrats.

Every time someone in Palestine attempts to work with Israel, they are murdered or deposed. The culture of fear and vengeance is preyed upon by foreigners. Talk to your average Israeli, not Likud, an average Israeli. They want this to be over. They want Palestinian statehood. Syria does not, nor does Lebanon, nor does Saudi Arabia, neither does Iran.

Can you imagine being in a nation of 4.5 million people and having a man like Saddam Hussein build a nuclear reactor right next to you and promise Iran that "it will only be used against the Israelis?" Try extending that liberal relativism a bit, not just to the Palestinians (who certainly deserve our support, aid and compassion) but to your average Israeli.

Thats the biggest Kahaneist bullshit ive ever heard. Nobody cares about Arab states except Israeli douchebags desperate for a talking point.
If we ingore the fact that just about every Arab state except Syria is bought by America we still have the fact that the dumbass zionist ZOMG WHY DONT THEY JUST MOVE TO LEBANON bit is basically ethnic cleansing. Then you finish it of by bringing in Israels former ally Saddam Hussein in true Republican style by saying that the only country in the middle east with proved Nuclear Weapons should be scared of him and by repeating the myth that Kassam rockets are THE ULTRA DEADLY (and not mentioning how Israel knowingly build the targeted military bases in civilian villages and fire mortars from fucking busy city streets.)
But yeah just plaster on a ITS A COMPLICATED ISSUE ,KAY BYE and it'll be alright.

Your response brings up another issue about Israeli rhetoric that bothers me. It always comes back to "But, but look at the Arab nations! Look how they're behaving!" What follows from this is that either Israel should be able to behave just as badly as they do, or that Israel's behavior is beyond reproach relative to that of its neighbors.

I do extend my "liberal relativism" to Israel. Yes they are surrounded by bad neighbors (although Israel has gone out of its way to further alienate itself from them), yes the average Israeli simply wants relief from the constant fear of suicide bombings and rocket attacks. My sympathies to them. However my discussion is restricted to Israel v. Gaza. You've done a marvelous job illustrating just how alone and impoverished of support the Palestinians really are, so it is all the more clear who the little guy is in this case. As for Israel being the "little guy" in the Middle Eastern neighborhood--I suppose that's true, in the same way the U.S. would be the little guy if Central America decided to gang up on it. See Six Day War.

The thing is, there is no shortage of intelligent criticism of Arab nations. I have heard precious little such criticism of Israel, however. There is plenty of criticism, to be sure, but it is almost never well taken. Even its most reasonable critics cannot shake off a faint air of ludicrousness. I dislike the sorts of critics you mention just as much as you do, baleen, but I don't think the answer should be "but look at the Arabs!"

In addition to the aforementioned ground, I criticize Israel because I expect better from it. You beat the dog you love the best and all that. I admire Israel and consider it developmentally superior to the Arab nations in a variety of ways, and I find it embarrassing when sympathizers attempt to excuse irresponsible behavior by pointing fingers at the Arabs. If an adult is to quarrel WITH a child (or group of children), he or she cannot justly quarrel LIKE a child.

I was trollin'

And you now you are banned. You really lowered the quality of discussion on poeTV, so move on my young, young friend.

I wanted to cry "Damn, you missed them."
Sorry but no sympathy for terrorists.

why do Syrians move to Gaza and hide in fucking schools? that's pretty sad.

How many civilians casualties are allowable in order to neutralize one Syrian terrorist? How many of the 375 killed so far do you think were combatants? How many Israeli civilians have been killed by Hamas rockets? How many Israeli soldiers have died during this conflict? Is it ok for a state to use violence to terrorize a civilian population into capitulating to their demands? Is it reasonable to believe that killing innocents and enacting crippling economic sanctions will deprive Hamas of support?

Your question looked lonely, baleen.

Answer: You have no right to ask those questions until rockets are falling on your house and killing your children.

baleen is a weeping vagina

a vagina that doesn't know that the rockets shot into israel rarely hit anything much less kill people.

They certainly dont level whole fucking buildings or neighborhoods

I'll shoot some rockets at your mom's house and you can lounge around and determine whether or not it's worth leaving your xbox to join the army, you crispy fart. Go get the wrinkles out of your Animatrix shirts (if you can find an ironing board big enough to accommodate them).

Everyone has a right to ask those questions, baleen. America has a duty to. Hardship does not purchase you preemptive absolution from irresponsible behavior toward fellow human beings. If I'd experienced the same sorts of things as the soldiers that were sent to My Lai, I probably would have participated along with the rest. Should you still withhold judgment in that case? You weren't THERE, man!