|SolRo - 2017-01-18 |
Pillager finally goes full gamer-gater/alt-right
No, I'm still a Green/Sanders supporter who is amused at the sad, bitter end result of Identitarianism.
There is no escape from "identity politics" in this country. What you consider scrapping "identity politics" is just returning to the default of catering to whites above minorities, men above women, and straight above LGBT.
Which of course was what many of us saw as the tacit message behind Bernie. We were right.
'Trump's white identity politics don't count guys, because of reasons! Also feminisms/BLM are like sooo annoying!!1'
Buckle up bitches, if you thought the response under Obama (or even Bush) was OTT, just wait to see how bad it gets once this orange idiot and his cabinet of flunkies start kicking the hornet's nest at every opportunity.
>>Which of course was what many of us saw as the tacit message behind Bernie. We were right.
What do you mean? I didn't pick up on that vibe.
Bernie showed over and over that he didn't want to address racism or any other isms, because his deal was economics and class; for a long time he had this nasty habit of answering any and all questions about race with discussions of economic class. He was eventually forced to take on race directly (Netroots Nation), but at every point he came across like a guy who has never been curious enough to study how racial disparity manifests in the 21st century.
Bernie never felt it was worth trying to bring his fans in line either, a great many of whom were openly hostile to blacks for not being supportive of Bernie. Well that put Bernie at a crossroads, and he took the wrong road. Don't think minorities in America didn't notice. Bernie's non-response was in its way representative of the overall problem of white "progressives": they want all the cred of being allies without actually doing any of the work that allies would do.
I'm really glad noted anti-racist Hillary Clinton managed to galvanize the minority voters with her campaign and clinch the victory. Can't wait for her inauguration tomorrow!
Bort, you're working under a misguided assumption that dealing with class isn't dealing with race, gender, etc. I suggest that you look at the work of Douglass Massey, specifically Categorically Unequal: The American Stratification System. In this work Massey notes that stratification of race, gender, and so on are primarily (now) expressed through class based issues. You can probably find Categorically Unequal, for free, at libgen.io.
simon666 - I've heard that disparities in race / gender / sexual orientation / whatever are best interpreted as class issues; I don't buy it. Trayvon Martin's problem wasn't that he didn't have enough money for Skittles or that he was seen stealing Skittles.
If anything, racism is what drives the economic inequality in this country: Republicans can get away with murder, or at the very least kleptocracy, simply by positioning themselves as champions of White America and eternal thwarters of Democratic schemes to rob from the White and give to the Black. Perhaps you read sympathetic interviews of Trump supporters this season, who lamented that the government is out to help blacks and Mexicans and queermos, but when is the poor downtrodden white man going to get any help? According to that framing, at least the Republicans aren't going to put whites at the back of the line -- which is a more sympathetic way of expressing the "rob from the White and give to the Black" business.
Whites were the only demographic to fall for it, though, like they always do. Imagine if more whites were bright enough to say, "yeah I got problems, but minorities have their unique problems too (not all of which are economic) and I won't begrudge them getting some help". The Republicans would be doomed, and they would no longer be able to keep impoverishing people of all colors.
Looking at Bernies track record, I think he's pretty solid in the civil rights department. I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to focus in on class, it could be a great way to bring people together of all colors. A lot of people are disenfranchised by the economic system. So addressing that is politically smart and humane. Normal people vote for their self interests.
Sure there is an escape. Most of the country is sick of the incessant bitching. The SJW's can STFU or keeping losing elections.
The Dems won't return to power until they learn to speak civilly to the people who actually vote.
"Looking at Bernies track record, I think he's pretty solid in the civil rights department."
Yes I know you think that, because he did a thing in the 1960s. But he has since been a representative, then a senator, in a state that has one of the highest black incarceration rates, with no track record of trying to do anything about it*. And he has that nasty record of ignoring his black constituents (â€śWe put out an all-points bulletin to our congressional delegation. Leahy responded and was instrumental in drawing attention to it. We got no response back from the other senatorâ€™s office, which was an indication that civil rights was not his top priority.â€ť). And when at the debates he was asked to talk about his blind spots, he described black America like he was outlining the premise of "Good Times".
That's Bernie on blacks. When it comes to the LGBT community, Bernie did what every Democrat has had to do in the past 30 years: endorse gay marriage or whatever when it seemed safe to do so, and drag his feet when it didn't. Bernie would like to tell you that he's been a stalwart champion of the LGBT community all along, but when Bernie was running for Senate in 2006 (and taking money from HillPAC by the way), he was opposed to gay marriage because he didn't think Vermont was ready for it. What a principled stand! I don't fault him for being mindful of political risks, but I do fault him for subsequently making like he was a hero to the LGBT community all along.
*: You know how Hillary was a racist for saying "super predators"? Bernie called those same people "sick and sociopathic". Be consistent, if you dare.
"The SJW's can STFU or keeping losing elections.
The Dems won't return to power until they learn to speak civilly to the people who actually vote."
Oh hey it's that old chestnut again: 'if only the dems had cozied up to the alt-reich some more blah blah blah'. So fucking dumb, even more so when you consider the actual vote count but hey go nuts screeching about SJWs while actual nazis take flanking positions on the halls of power.
"Liberals may be heavily represented in the media, the centers of culture (popular, and otherwise), and in academia. But unless we are able to start learning how to talk to people unlike us, weâ€™ll likely keep losing."
Smugness & arrogance cost Hillary an election she felt entitled to.
I really the Dems learn from 2016.
"I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to focus in on class, it could be a great way to bring people together of all colors. A lot of people are disenfranchised by the economic system. So addressing that is politically smart and humane. Normal people vote for their self interests."
Every election in the past 50 years goes against all of that. Piece by piece:
"I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to focus in on class, it could be a great way to bring people together of all colors."
Democrats have been pushing for a better economic deal for decades now. They aren't winning on it -- a majority of white people still support the Republicans while minorities overwhelmingly support Democrats. Even in this latest Democratic primary we saw the same pattern: whites favored Bernie, minorities overwhelmingly supported Hillary. Class has failed over and over to bring people together.
"A lot of people are disenfranchised by the economic system. So addressing that is politically smart and humane."
It's neither smart nor humane to ignore the fact that minorities have concerns beyond a minimum wage. Minorities suspect, and with good reason, that solutions intended to appeal to "Americans" in general just might fail to trickle down to them. Like consider our school systems that are theoretically equal ... it just so happens that the funding mechanisms tend to cut against areas that blacks have traditionally been funneled into, meaning blacks end up with worse schools than whites. Another example of the accidentally-on-purpose system that blacks have to worry about, but you don't have to contend with so you don't consider it an issue the Democrats should devote effort to.
In short, you consider it humane to address your needs, but people who have it even worse ... ? Fuck 'em.
"Normal people vote for their self interests."
Republicans have won for 50 years by noticing that most white voters believe keeping blacks down is in their self interests. It's delusion on white voters' part, but nevertheless that is how they vote.
You made some good points in there. I was kind of thinking of it as focusing on economy/class as an over-arching political device running up to an election. I could be wrong though.
Ideally, a good candidate would work on racial issues as well.
>>Republicans have won for 50 years by noticing that most white voters believe keeping blacks down is in their self interests. It's delusion on white voters' part, but nevertheless that is how they vote.
If the public needs a scapegoat, bankers are a good candidate, rather than minorities.
>>In short, you consider it humane to address your needs, but people who have it even worse ... ? Fuck 'em.
No, I don't know how you got there. I was just thinking aloud about how candidates may want to manipulate the public.
"No, I don't know how you got there. I was just thinking aloud about how candidates may want to manipulate the public."
I detect a heapin' helping of, "if only everyone cared about the things that matter most to me, there wouldn't be any problems". Which would be fine if your problems were the biggest problems this country faces.
"There is no escape from "identity politics" in this country. What you consider scrapping "identity politics" is just returning to the default of catering to whites above minorities, men above women, and straight above LGBT."
Only authoritarians lack a concept that someone can be outside their identity. You're either with us, or with the terrorists. This is the same way actual racists see the world, as categories and not individuals.
This strategy failed the Republican party, who now has a strong vocal liberal wing (left and right are now useless terms, they both mean authoritarian), and a Republican wouldn't be president right now if the Democrats hadn't adopted their identity strategies and doubled down on them, complete with media collusion, lies, and gaming the system, just like Republicans do.
No one expects the reg-left to see it and change, they just expect them to keep on being another moralizing power hungry bloc we have to endure, just like Christians. Discrediting them is automatic, they do it to themselves.
>>I detect a heapin' helping of, "if only everyone cared about the things that matter most to me, there wouldn't be any problems". Which would be fine if your problems were the biggest problems this country faces.
Dude, I don't even know what you're talking about. You manage to glean pretty wacky shit from my conversations with you. I wrote that I thought class wasn't a bad place start as a political strategy. I also stated I might be wrong, what do I know? I wrote that an ideal candidate would also focus on racial issues as well.
Rather innocuous stuff, but you always manage to arrive at "You don't care about anyone else, you're selfish." Let's face it, it's because I voted Sanders over empty suit mom in the primaries. I'm not even remotely a staunch Sanders supporter, I'm not personally invested in any of my rulers, potential or otherwise. You are partisan to the marrow, holy cow.
|Monkey Napoleon - 2017-01-18 |
This belongs here.
|bawbag - 2017-01-18 |
Mundane stuff. who cares/10.
|Caminante Nocturno - 2017-01-18 |
This is going to be Sarah Palin all over again, only funnier.
|Scrimmjob - 2017-01-19 |
|kingarthur - 2017-01-19 |
"How do we reach the youth vote without actually engaging in any concrete policies the youth want to see enacted? Oh, I remember: identity politics!"
Bort, Bernie's Public & Private policies were solid & actually matched.
Bernie's math was shit, and as far as I know he never once explained why single payer failed in his own state less than six months before he announced his presidential campaign. "The problem with the Hindenburg was that it wasn't big enough!"
In any event I'm talking about Jill Stein, who somehow managed to be even less detail-oriented than Bernie.
|John Holmes Motherfucker - 2017-01-19 |
I disagree with her take on feminism, and don't know about her take on anything else, but I love that she's doing this right now, with the alt right seizing power, after everything that s done to her. I'd love to see her go to Washington, and get in some Republican shitbag's face.
|Quad9Damage - 2017-01-19 |
Hopefully her job performance will be better than her game design.
|NewHeavenSockman - 2017-01-19 |
can't wait until the democratic party is reduced to that core ten thousand people that like and retweet every time someone makes fun of trump's hair
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