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Desc:They really don't seem to understand that they're disproving their own argument.
Category:Crime, Horror
Tags:Abortion, pro-life, libertyville, Ive never really thought about it
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Comment count is 48
Chet - 2007-07-30
The interviewer nor does the poster get it. Punishment does not equal justice. The narrator is upset that these women are compassionate and do not want to be vindictive. If you think that disproves their argument against abortion you are a fucking idiot.
smoothbrain - 2007-07-30
I don't know about "disproving their own argument" but this definitely shows that none of these people have put any thought into the consequences of whatever it is they're arguing for.

Chet - 2007-07-30
Because they are not arguing to punish these women, that is not their goal. There goal is to stop the behavoir and it if it is illegal, it will prevent the behavoir from being practiced.

I am not against abortion, but I am against being as stupid as this narrator.

Xenocide - 2007-07-30
I think the "they disprove their own argument" thing was a joke, as in "these people are walking arguments for abortion."

Having said that, the video is indeed stupid. Banning abortion would help no one, but the fact that these people care about their cause and not about punishing women should count in their favor. There are plenty of people on the anti-abortion side who are in it to indulge their petty misogyny, we don't need to condemn those who aren't.

Stopheles - 2007-07-30
Chet, if they really don't see a discrepancy between their belief in punishing murder by law and their belief that "God will provide the punishment", if they really think that making something illegal will keep it from happening, if they really haven't thought at all about the punishment levied for something once it is made illegal, they're either morons or are lying to the interviewer.

If you want to make something illegal, you are by definition wanting to make the people who do that thing criminals. If you don't want the people who do it to be punished, if you believe that it's an issue between the person and God, why make it illegal?

(and on a side note via JESUS CAMP: if you believe that Jesus can improve your bowling score, why can't He just make abortion something that doesn't exist and never has?)

It's quite likely that the higher-ups in the 'make abortion illegal' camp HAVE given thought to the suitable punishment for those who have abortions once they're made illegal -- but that levying a punishment proportional to their "abortion=murder" concept means stating that you want women who have abortions to be treated as murderers (death penalty? lifetime in prison?). And that concept would alienate the middle-of-the-road folks who don't like abortions.

Stopheles - 2007-07-30
...and consider that their argument is "abortion is murder and should be illegal...but as for punishment, well, that's an issue between the woman and God, just like it is now with abortion legal, but it should be illegal because it's murder, but..."

Maybe I should edit the description to replace the word "disprove" with "counter" or "deflate" or "show the absolute idiocy of" ?

Lindner - 2007-07-30
It won't prevent the behavior from being practiced. It will at best, make it harder to get and decidedly less safe. Telling someone that an act is illegal, but the violation of law carries no penalty really doesn't seem like any kind of real barrier to me.

Further, I think the interviewer's point is that these women have been involved in this organization for some time. After years in these organizations, I would expect them to be able to answer a reasonable question that pertains to the effect of what they're fighting to achieve.

Chet - 2007-07-30
Stopheles you 100% miss the point. They do not think that the punishment will deter abortion so they don't care about that. What they do care about is having it readily available so some women can treat it as casual as birth control. In that frame, the punishment to the woman is irrelevant. To these women, this discussion is great than punishment that can be handed out here on earth and get this, listening to these women, they even feel compassion for the woman getting the abortion...

The narrator seems gleeful when the death penalty is raised because OMG OMG OMG OMG HE IS GOING TO CATCH THEM!!! Until the woman of course undermines his catch by pointing out she is against that as well.

You are obviously in the I AM ANTI RELIGION TO THE MAX group of thought that saddens me that it exists on poe. That kind of blind stupidity is exactly what you are railing against.

Stopheles - 2007-07-30
Actually, Chet, I'm a religious person, and was raised one, and I'll hold back from lashing out at you for assuming that I am a GODLESS INTERNET MORON or whatever the fuck, based on thinking that hard-right Christians don't often think through their positions. Because lashing out at you wouldn't be nice, and I was raised to be nice.

But I will say that I disagree with your statement that "punishment to the woman is irrelevant" -- I guaran-fucking-TEE you that they've considered what would be appropriate punishment for the abortion doctors; they haven't considered the same thing for women who get abortions, because they don't want to think about the fact that abortion isn't something forced by EEEEEVIL ABORTIONISTS upon women who just don't know better (notice that the woman who was laudably anti-death-penalty started coming up with every relativist factor which might possibly make a woman who got an abortion NOT a murderer).

There are anti-abortion protestors who've gone so far as to kill abortion doctors and have attempted to justify it by claiming that abortion is murder; would they do the same to the women who had abortions at that clinic?

Chet - 2007-07-30
Wow, off into la la land I will leave you. Because there was once a guy on the Internet who got so mad that he drove over another guy's house and burned it down. So you might do that...

Stopheles - 2007-07-30
A shame that you won't address my point -- is it because I'm part of the RELIGION IS STUPID POSSE or something?

Chet - 2007-07-30
What is your point that i am not addressing? That you are the only moral person in this world? That these women are all liars? That even though these woman answered in a way consistent with my idea, you are sure they are the devil women hiding their true motives?

Please, tell me, what point am I not addressing?

Stopheles - 2007-07-30
That they're not planning on having abortion be illegal but without punishment; that they've planned a criminalization of abortion without acknowledging that both abortion DOCTORS and abortion RECIPIENTS would be criminalized by such; that they in fact have been demonizing the doctors for decades but that doing the same to the recipients is likely to alienate many people who might otherwise join the picket-line; that the people who believe that it's okay to punish abortion doctors with death likely have a double standard regarding the women who actually choose and initiate the abortion.

How did I go from being "I AM ANTI RELIGION TO THE MAX" to "I am the only moral person in the world" in such a short time? Zowie.

Jeff Fries - 2007-07-30
I don't know what he expects people to think other than that for pro-choice folk it's not enough to win the legal battle but to humiliate people who are against the idea. I'm afraid this man is a dipshit.

Jeff Fries - 2007-07-30
I meant to post this in the main thread, where that last sentence would enjoyed a delicious ambiguity.

Chet - 2007-07-31
Stopheles , read your own comments, not much else I can say. You start guaran-fucking-TEEing that you can read people's mind and judge them based on that mind reading...

There is no insight in the video, just a jackass being a smug jackass.

jihadbaby - 2007-07-31
+5 stars for the first poetv fagdance.

By the way, my own point of view is: I think there is a problem where certain people almost treat abortion as a form of contraception because of the fact that it IS legal, and that is disgusting and should be stopped.

HOWEVER, I have no answer as to how it should be stopped and therefore I am not out rallying for it to be made illegal because that would involve some kind of punishment, and if my position is simply "I think it should be illegal but I will let someone else decide what that punishment should be", then, I would be a retard, like these people.

If you want to change the world, you better have at least a glimpse of an idea as to what you want to achieve as a result of your actions.

Feyd - 2007-07-31
Don't be a dumbass, Chet. The maker's point and Stopheles' point is that there is no law without enforcement. The people interviewed either do not have a plan for enforcement or don't want to admit to an audience what their belief enforcement and punishment should look like. This betrays a complete ignorance of the entire idea of criminality. The video makes the respondents look like shallow foot soldiers for concepts the do not fully understand. Nobody said they aren't compassionate, but that they're advocating tinkering with a system on which they haven't done their homework.

futurebot - 2007-08-01
I'm with Stopheles and Feyd on this one. You don't have to accuse these women of some kind of malevolent vindictiveness to observe that they are lobbying to impose their ideas about abortion on other people, to set in motion a whole apparatus of law and police power, with absolutely no thought or even evident concern about the consequences. This is irresponsible to the point of recklessness.

Bort - 2014-01-23
Wow, I'm only 6.5 years late to the party.

I think what we're seeing here is the disingenuousness of the pro-life side. If abortion is heinous enough of an act to make illegal, then the participants in the act deserve punishment, and that would have to include both the woman and the doctor. Only, it's hard for even the pro-lifers to give in to demonizing the woman, because somewhere in the pit of their hellbound souls they know that it's not really a monster callously murdering a child, but a woman trying to do her best with a fetus before it develops into a child.

If it were a matter of, say, women having actual children euthanized, the outcry against them would be deafening, and putting them to death a dozen times over would be too good for them.

So as Chet says, the pro-lifers in question deserve some credit for not being actively malicious towards women. But I say they're engaged in a passive form of malice (i.e. denying women the ability to have abortions) that completely nullifies any good I might see in them. They are perfectly fine with denying women access to safe medical treatment, they just don't want to feel like meanies about it.

Lindner - 2007-07-30
How is it that Christians have developed that ability to make the words "God Bless You" feel like they're saying, "Go fuck yourself, heathen cock-mangler"?

I especially like how she makes the sign of the cross after talking to him, to purify herself of his sinful internet reporter spiritual bacteria.
Pandatronic - 2007-07-30
GoodAaron - 2007-07-30
Is this the first open debate we've had on these video comments? I remember the days when there was a one sentence cap on these puppies.
Frank Rizzo - 2007-07-30
simon666 - 2007-07-30
these people are retarded. they want abortion illegal and this shows how poorly they have thought through what needs to take place in order for their goals to be achieved. at least if they were comprehensive you could take the their 'moral' debate seriously.
EvilHomer - 2007-07-30
5 stars for the poeTV comments. I love you guys; never change!
Sudan no1 - 2007-07-30
So even if abortion is illegalized I can have as many as I want without getting in trouble with the law? Cool, thanks fundies!
Honest Abe - 2007-07-30
revdrew - 2007-07-30
How can anyone have anything but utter contempt for these people? They haven't even honestly thought through what they're proposing, and the harm it would be inflicting on people.

OMG RELIGION IS TH3 SUXX0R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stopheles - 2007-07-30
But Revdrew, they're just so damned COMPASSIONATE!!!!

CIWB - 2007-07-30
My problem with these women is that they (and the pro-life movement in general) will say that they believe abortion is just as bad as murder, yet the fact that they oppose any sort of punishment for abortion proves that they're being disingenuous. Unless of course they also believe that premeditated murder is something that shouldn't be punished either.
dead_cat - 2007-07-31
Five stars for the comments alone.
StanleyPain - 2007-07-31
What's especially infuriating about these people is how they do all this for OMG FETUS RIGHTs, but once babies are born, they do fuck all for them and support basically every social policy that keeps people poor and oppressed. How many of these people fight for welfare rights and better paying jobs and things like that?

Quick, informed guess: None of them.
fluffy - 2007-07-31
holy fuck did I wander into poe-news or something?
Honest Abe - 2007-07-31
you're worthless

Dan Druff - 2007-07-31
Considering I'm living in a place right now (Korea) where abortion is both A) illegal and B) More widely available than it is in the states, I say these cockmongers should get exactly what they want.

Go ahead, make it "illegal"... then watch as suddenly some obstetricians make themselves a few more cadillacs on the side aborting for women who can afford it, and as always, fuck the poor (would it be be a republican law otherwise?).

If anyone wants to find me one of these mythical whores who get pregnant and has abortions just for fun, I'd love to meet her. Back in canada, getting the baby sucked out is free, birth control isn't, and people STILL have fewer abortions than in the deep south.
cognitivedissonance - 2007-07-31
Yeah, but Korea is also like 75% Moonie, so of course there's lip service.

jihadbaby - 2007-07-31
I personally know a girl who first became pregnant at 15. So far, at 22, she's had three abortions (we're not talking about forceps here, we're talking about pills prior to three months gestation). Unfortunately, morons do exist, many more than you would like to think.

As far as abortions just for fun, I seem to recall several years ago seeing on poe proper an abortion fetish site by a woman who actually had forceps abortions performed on herself, several times, had them filmed, and sold the videos. Does anyone of the "elders" here remember seeing that crap?

TeenerTot - 2007-07-31
Certainly food for thought. I am not as eloquent as many of the posters here (whose comments I enjoyed reading very much). I think these people in the vid are stuck on the emotion and "message" of it all, and can't be bothered with the secular real-world details. However, I find it hard to believe that the church that sponsors these people doesn't have some sort of plan in mind. My own paranoid beliefs about the organized church lead me to the slippery-slope mentality:
-Deliberate abortions are illegal.....then
-Abortions for medical reasons are illegal.....then
-Miscarriages due to negligent care of oneself = manslaughter

Chruchies believe that "life" begins at conception, which makes no sense to me. If you want to get really controversial, I could say that the cluster of cells forming the mole on my arm has as much "life" in it as that....Should it be illegal for me to have it removed?
Daughters of Uzbek - 2007-07-31
Knowing that Chet is busy coding Half Life 4 or whatever makes it that much more mindblowing that he puts up with the POE entourage. More fights!
Grace Mugabe - 2007-08-01
Like Kissinger said, it's a pity both sides can't lose.
Grace Mugabe - 2007-08-01
I mean, I totally fail to see what's so outrageous about a situation where abortion providers are punished severely but abortion customers are let off with a slap on the wrist. I don't agree with it, but it's coherent. There's already precedent in the treatment of soft drugs and, in reverse, prostitution.

Stopheles - 2007-08-01
Well, it makes the whole "IT'S MURDER!!!" argument seem a bit hollow, doesn't it?

Grace Mugabe - 2007-08-03
Not really. Again, your legal system already recognises several varieties of murder of differing severities.
B_Ko - 2007-08-19
Drama? in MY poetv.com? It's more likely than you think.
FABIO2 - 2007-08-20
Demanding laws without any thought whatsoever to the whole "punishment" and "consequences" thing is okay BECAUSE THEY SURE SEEM LIKE NICE COMPASSIONATE PEOPLE I'M SURE WHATEVER THEY (or their organizers) COME UP WITH WILL BE FINE.

Holy fuck what is wrong with people? I think Chet is suffering from some sort of reverse PC backlash.

Anyways, listening to these women dodge the question seems eerily similar to listening to a neocon trying to argue a point without outright saying he hates dark people or that New York Times editors should be shot for treason because it would sink the moderate support they need.
Vicious - 2008-02-26
This is a really goddamn long string of comments.
Wombles - 2009-04-25
The noteworthy argument here is a legal one; virtually all laws have some implied penalty; this is the concept of law itself.

The hypocrisy exposed is that if a crime is comparable to murder, then the punishment ought to be similar.
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