|EvilHomer - 2013-02-19 |
Thank God the Iraq war stopped and the profiteers were brought to justice once Obama took over.
Can you imagine what Rachel Maddow would have done to our president had he embraced Bush's foreign policy, tried to get his cronies immunity from war crimes prosecution, expanded the role of the national security state, started wars for oil in at least three new countries AND THEN TRIED TO SELL IT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE? Better to just do this shit quietly than to do it openly and lie about your reasons.
Five for evil.
while watching this, I couldn't help but thinking how little it will accomplish
I loathe conspiracy nuts, but if some overly-opinionated moronic stoner ever rambles to you about how the American government will lie to their citizens and the world in order to justify an expensive and bloody invasion, well they are right, its happened twice in fifty years now
DISCLOSURE: I am an overly opinionated stoner.
So which dems are going to prosecute Obama for war crimes?
OZ: Chris Hedges pretty astutely describes Americans as having a Hegelian "negative identity", definining ourselves solely on who we aren't. The end of the Cold War hence created an identity crisis where we obsessed over Monica and O.J. - we were desperately hungry for an enemy to define ourselves against. And a handful of salafist extremists gave us what we craved.
There is a War Party, it's made of the elites from various sides, and today's anti-war politico becomes tomorrow's cheerleader for war so long as it's being carried out by "our side", though you have plenty who'll support any war or "intervention". Mucking about in Somalia, the former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, those who want us to, for various reasons, interfere in Syria and the usual suspects desiring to bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran. No side is immune, many a so-called "progressive" can be quite blase about collateral damage and American casualties in the service of some nebulous goal just as well as any neocon dipshit armchair general effusively gushing about chances to "bring democracy" to some benighted part of the world through bombings and surges.
BHWW, do you allow that it's possible to believe military action is sometimes the best available approach, without automatically being a cheerleader?
You mentioned Libya as an example of a regrettable war, at least that's the impression I'm getting. But our involvement in Libya was dictated by the UNSC, with an 11-0 vote in favor of action (4 abstentions), because Kaddafi looked to be ready to wage war on the civilian population. Yeah, we could have kept our hands squeaky clean in all this, and Libya would have resolved itself neatly enough, in a thousand different basements with ten thousand different atrocities. How many deaths is it worth to keep our hands squeaky clean?
So much of what's going on now is ethics class elevated to foreign policy. Do you pull the lever that sends a trolley down a track with a group of people, one of whom is a terrorist who's planning to blow up a train in Barcelona? How do you count the lives you'll expect to save? There's no exact way to do it, but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss it as a factor.
The Libya intervention was dictated by the eagerness of Nicolas Sarkozy & David Cameron. The US was reluctant to have anything to do with it until France started dropping bomb, and then the logic of maintaining American leadership in the trans-Altlantic alliance took hold. Though the U.S. did little actual bombing, it did show just how brittle the militaries of France and the UK are - France went through their entire inventory of precision guided munitions in weeks.
France spends less on their military than we do and that's something to envy.
United Nations Security Council, zero votes against. That doesn't count for anything at all? Not even Russia or China was willing to say that action in Libya was wrong.
I agree that we shouldn't be too credulous when the US or England or France or NATO demands action to prevent a civilian massacre, but if you won't trust the UN, is there any organization you will?
|John Holmes Motherfucker - 2013-02-19 |
God, it's easy to forget how stupid these turkeys were. The incompetence is what's extraordinary here, not the evil. I didn't watch the whole thing, did they show the "Mission Accomplished" banner? That's the image that sums it all up. They were utterly fucking clueless, stumbling around, overturning governments, killing people, and running ads that say FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH!
Lying to get us into a war is bad, but we WERE in a war, a fairly serious one, if you live in New York City. All indications appear to be that, if they'd been a little more successful, (if the Democrats hadn't won in 2006) they'd have gone into Iran. And now Iran wants a nuclear weapon. Ya think?
|John Holmes Motherfucker - 2013-02-19 |
>>Given the current apathetic (overall) climate, that's not happening, either.
I don't think the climate is apathetic. I'm convinced that the most corrupting influence is Gerrymandering of congressional districts. This makes it easy for most incumbents in both parties to stay in office and encourages ideological digging in of one's heels.
|godot - 2013-02-19 |
I listened to Rachel Maddow and Al Franken's morning show on Air America radio throughout 2002 and 2003.
The disparity between Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity and Scott Ritter (both proven exactly right) and the mainstream media was just dumbfounding. All the facts about the Pentagon Office of Special Plans, promotion of yes-men in the CIA, and stovepiping of intelligence were in the public domain in early 2002.
About the only good thing to come out of the Iraq debacle was the end of Judith Miller's journalism career.
|Jet Bin Fever - 2013-02-19 |
Evil. So so evil.
|THA SUGAH RAIN - 2013-02-19 |
the Bush administration lied about the evidence that they used to justify the invasion of Iraq
the United States invaded Iraq for reasons that had nothing to do with 9/11 or WMD
|deadpan - 2013-02-19 |
I want to watch this but seeing Doug Feith's gormless face was a trigger to remember the whole fucking mess and I guess I'm still too angry about it to pretend it's all history.
Five stars for the producers having to self-control to interview these war criminals without reflexively punching them in the face.
|Caminante Nocturno - 2013-02-19 |
I think it's wrong to treat the American people as victims instead of accomplices.
Yes. It's one thing to get swept up in a lot of emotions and be susceptible to War Fever, but if it's been a few years and you don't really mind that you were lied to and you still support the war that was built on lies, you are pretty near the root of the problem.
It's funny how people kind of understand when they're being lied to, and will go along with it until the lies could start affecting them. Back in the day, people were supportive of any number of Bush's proposals, but on the topic of privatizing Social Security, they turned foursquare against him because they knew what he was really about. So while I know for sure there were some people who believed Bush was doing the right thing in Iraq, I suspect there were even more people who just went along, because fuck it, it's just Iraq and a few soldiers.
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