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Desc:'It is no wonder the Jews fear another Holocaust.'
Category:News & Politics, Religious
Tags:Israel, Palestine, Holocaust, Pope Francis
Submitted:Maru
Date:05/26/14
Views:1222
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Comment count is 25
SteamPoweredKleenex
There was an interesting study mentioned on an old episode of RadioLab where some Palestinians and Jews from Israel/Gaza were shown unedited, uncut, uncommentated-on footage of fighting in the area.

Both sides said the footage shown was biased against their group.
EvilHomer
That study was clearly biased against Israelis and Palestinians.

EvilHomer
Sorry, biased against "Israelis". Technically speaking, there are no Palestinians, only Israelis and backwards, racist, disgruntled Israelis who, like our own Antebellum Southerners, should learn to shut up and quit bitching about secession, before their rightful government gets fed up and is forced to correct their behavior.

Maru
so is the rightful government the arab one or the jewish one?

baleen
There's no such thing as a "rightful" government. Especially when holocausts happen, and one side chooses to ally with the losers.

They should run the fucking country together, end the apartheid, and get over it, but that's never going to happen, because both sides are completely insane. It doesn't help that Americans continually simplify the issue and cherrypick the bits of history that make them feel resolved in their beliefs that one side is the bad guy and the other side is the not bad guy.

Maru
I want to know who EvilHomer thinks the evil secessionists are.

EvilHomer
Well, that depends on whom YOU think they are.

Maybe we could have a Palestine Week?!

Gmork
I'm not sure anyone is under the impression that there have been anything EXCEPT evil fucking butchers on both sides.

Maru
ahh you see, EH wrote that post with one of the two in mind, but he's too scared to tell us which one it is.

EvilHomer
That post was written exactly as you see it, unedited and without comment. You are, of course, free to read me as possessing whatever bias you'd like!

This seems to be a subject that interests you, however, so I would enjoying hearing which group you stand with, and why.

EvilHomer
(honestly? Rereading my own post, I think if anything it's a bit biased against *the Union*, which is probably worse than picking a side on Israel.

Happy Memorial Day, fakahs!)

Maru
I'll tell you what to think -after- you tell me what you were thinking.

EvilHomer
I just told you. I was thinking, fuck Lincoln and fuck the Union, why don't I post something that makes the American Civil War sound like a brutal terrorist campaign and/or imperialist occupation. Or rather, I think that's what I was thinking, on a subconscious level; as I give it further consideration, that is the explanation that makes the most sense to me.



Anyway, as far as Israel is concerned, I could really argue either way. And have, at various times over the years. Sometimes even with conviction! Now, I'm going to *guess*, based on the general climate of the website and what I remember about your posting history, that you're... pro-Palestine? So in that case, I'm pro-Israel.


Which would probably help, because I think I lean a little bit more towards Israel anyways these days, and at any rate I've encountered more sophisticated and persuasive arguments from the Israeli camp, so it would be nice to hear more from a dissenting voice. Also, upon even further consideration, I think I was leaning more towards the Palestinians being the secessionists in my post above... but this raises further problems, because that post was dripping with sarcasm and at least 80% irony-by-volume, which meant I was probably bashing the Jews MORE than the Arabs, despite the fact that, again, I generally side with the Jews. It's a pattern I've noticed with myself. Undermining things I shouldn't be undermining. Like how I make fun of bronies, when I should really be circling the wagons and laying out the rainbow-colored sandbags.

Anyway, please tell me you're for Palestine, I don't want this to be all for nothing.

EvilHomer
Oh, duurrrr, you posted this video. Yeah, I'm totally pro-Israel. En garde!

SolRo
the Israeli expansion into the west bank is EXACTLY like the american civil war.


could you explain your retarded argument about how Palestinians are secessionists? that's a new one for me.

Maru
Well, you weren't thinking "fuck Lincoln/the union" because that was the triumphant character in your analogy, but I'm grateful you at least came clean about being a pro-Israel guy (even if that's subject to change the second someone cocks an eyebrow at you.)

If I'm more sympathetic to the Palestinians than the Israelis, it's because I simply don't buy this false equivalence that Israel and Palestine are both equally bad, and equally culpable in sabotaging relations between their two countries. I don't even see how they could be when you consider Israel's superior infrastructure, weapons, international support, and near total dominance of the public discourse. I mean, do Israelis climb into buses by the hundreds to be herded in as wage slaves to Palestine? I don't think they do.

Five stars for my wonderful and erudite comment.

EvilHomer
That's a bit simplistic, don't you think, Maru? Saying that you side with the Palestinians simply because they are underdogs? (however we might define underdoggery?) Surely there's more to the issue than Israel is big and mean, Palestine is small and helpless, and at any rate isn't focusing attention on all those Israeli advantages - foreign support, control over discourse - ultimately just emotionally manipulative ad hominem? Surely what matters in terms of the debate over moral equivalency are the major salient points - the historicity of the Palestinian state, and the comparative strategic ethics of the two warring parties - and not whether one side looks more like a victim than the other.

At any rate, I don't see why you claim Israel enjoys those stated advantages. In terms of weaponry and infrastructure, yes, Israel is clearly on top. In terms of international support, the matter is less clear-cut. Palestine probably has the advantage here; the Palestinian cause is championed by virtually every single one of Israel's neighbours, while Israel's only real foreign ally is the United States, and we all know how mixed a blessing that can be. As for the public discourse? Well, I guess that depends on one's frame of reference, but I know in my experience, the public discourse has *always* been where the Palestinians shine. The Palestinians have a far more sophisticated PR department, and where I come from, a very progressive, politically trendy environment, sympathy for Israel is almost completely non-existent (it's one of those boogiemen you always hear about, but never actually encounter; like the witches who live just over the hills. You never see these witches, but you know they're lurking everywhere.) However, I cannot say for certain that Palestine controls the discourse where you live; perhaps you have had a different experience?



SolRo: if the Israeli expansion into the West Bank is _exactly_ like the America Civil War, then in what ways would Israel be the Secessionists? I do not recall Southerners invading, occupying, and resettling Yankee lands, nor do I see the Palestinians as being the ones with access to sophisticated industry and rails. There's a little racism in Israeli policy, sure, but there are racists in the Palestinian camp as well.

Maru
Well, first off it's not "looks like", one side is clearly more of a victim than the other. Why even dispute that? Secondly, historicity of the state? Are you kidding? Israel is a totally ahistorical state. The Jews haven't had a nation in Palestine since the Roman era. Why should the Arabs in Palestine, who've been living on that land continually for centuries, be the ones beholden to "historicity"? And I would love to hear how you compare the "strategic ethics" of Israel over Palestine. Unlike Israel, Palestine is a land under occupation; children there are continually being shot, killed, or arrested by IDF forces--and when it happens, it's not an act of terrorism, it's the order of the day. Also Israel is allied with practically the entire western world, not just the US.

Your views of the relationship between Israel and Palestine are almost precisely inverted from reality, and like you said, it's because you live in one of those weird liberal bubbles, and take that to be indicative of the general sentiment of the western world. The idea that Palestine's PR dpt. is "sophisticated" is by itself a laughable notion (unless telling your friends in college about your dead aunt and uncle overseas is some kind of jedi mind trick), nevermind the idea that their messaging is more sophisticated than what is clearly one of the most powerful lobbies in the world. Israel turns American presidents into bootlickers. They have a voice. Since when does America and Europe kowtow to Palestine? The fact is nobody wants to takes sides against Israel, and if anyone does, it's Israel's fault. Virtually everyone who is a Palestinian sympathizer now, was saying "fuck Palestine" ten minutes before they actually read something about the conflict, including me.

dairyqueenlatifah
I don't understand what Israeli/Pro Israelites like this guy want. Do they think some other country should just import all the Palestinians and take them off Israel's hands?

Not that I really feel any sympathy for either side. A substantial fraction of the Palestinians, much like the majority of the Muslim world, won't be happy until every last Jew in Israel is driven into the sea, and had no problem gleefully celebrating in the streets when 9/11 happened.
SolRo
A substantial fraction of the (Americans), much like the majority of the (Western) world, won't be happy until every last (Arab) in (the Middle East) is driven into the sea, and had no problem gleefully celebrating in the streets when (Iraq was conquered).


I like this game.

RedHood
Fuck this guys and fuck Pro-israeli hate mongers.
Kid Fenris
The most interesting remarks come at the end. Pro-Israel rants are nothing out of the ordinary, but you don't see that sort of pseudo-Dispensationalist finisher quite as often.
Syd Midnight
Israel's most rabid Muslim detractors AND Christian supporters both believe that it is the will of God almighty to see every faithful jew die and burn in Hell for eternity. They simply disagree over whether this should happen before or after a global apocalypse.

It's ironic but understandable for Israel to accept aid from religious fanatics who prophecy that the world must be destroyed by plague and fire prior to their seizing Israel as their new homeland. Lets just hope no Pentecostal gets a nuke and divine inspiration.

Ocyrus
You know what would be nice... if Israel's fears of an Iranian nuclear holocaust came into fruition. Perhaps a total cleansing of the region is what is needed to end this shit once and for all.
Jet Bin Fever
Israel is having a harder and harder time these days suppressing information about their human rights violations and terrible treatment of the Palestinian people. It's only a matter of time before they have to change or face alienation from everyone in the world except maybe the US, which stubbornly refuses to do ANYTHING about it.
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