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Desc:Anita Sarkeesian's new work
Category:Video Games, Educational
Tags:Anita Sarkeesian, tropes vs women in videogames
Submitted:Adham Nu'man
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Comment count is 106
Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
5 stars for a "strong content warning" instead of trigger warnings.

Trigger warnings are a trigger for me.
Syd Midnight - 2014-06-20
Yeah, I'm totally onboard with voluntary content warnings, but "triggering" is a shitty way to put it. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like its condescending, disempowering, and embarrassing, making it seem like people are inanimate objects whose function is to be reflexively upset, as opposed to "I really don't feel like reading about rape/murder right now kthx".

misterbuns - 2014-06-16
Nice motion graphics and editorial.

All that stuff costs money. Glad she is using her funds wisely.
fluffy - 2014-06-16
As one of the backers I'm glad she's putting it to use to make a nicely-polished video.

Also I suspect that she's using modern video editing software that lets you set up simple templates, so it's not like it costs a shitton every single time a particular thing happens. I suspect that most of her real production time (and therefore expense) goes to finding examples and sourcing videos.

Cena_mark - 2014-06-16
You gave her money? What?!?!?! She's a horrible person who's wrong about everything.

Cena_mark - 2014-06-16
You should have used that to get 2.5 months of the WWE Network.

Riskbreaker - 2014-06-17
flufy, you paid a woman to use a bunch of Let's Play footage for her youtube videos. Just sayin...

kingofthenothing - 2014-06-16
Comments already disabled? Wow.

Why is it this lady looks like she can't hold back a smirk when she's talking? Like she knows she's lying and takes some joy in the deception.

The thing is, all these thing she brings up about video games actually happen in real life. There are prostitutes. Women models are used to sell all kinds of shit. Look at some car or motorcycle magazines sometime. They used Cindy Crawford to sell Pepsi and that shit worked like gang busters.

She makes points that are very cherry picked as well. She talks about copied and pasted NPC women, while neglecting to mention that GTA5 does the same thing to male characters, that there are, in fact, a limited number of possible character models available and sometimes you'll run into some repeats. She makes it sound like this only happens with female characters.

Not only does she make these huge omissions to help sell a point, she just flatly assumes things as true, like that strippers are somehow a grossly misogynist scenario and not a fundamental inevitability of the free market.

Why can't art imitate life, even the ugly parts?
Adham Nu'man - 2014-06-16
"Why can't art imitate life, even the ugly parts?"

Yeah ok but you will agree that 99% of games when depicting prostitutes are not imitating life, they are imitating the fantasies of a horny 14 year old.

Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
I've been reading the book Fever Reading (http://amzn.to/1nLicc6) and it'spretty interesting how closely related the arguments about the detrimental, soul-an-society crushing effects of "bad" media are to the arguments against "bad reading" in the 1800s.

The whole fucked up feast-or-famine relationship with the darker aspects of the human psyche the US inherited from the Puritans probably bears more responsibility for the issues she's talking about (and a whole lot of others) than any kind of media could dream of. We're all deny-deny-deny-deny-deny-deny-deny-EXPLODE!!!1

Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
But these videos are always worth a strong 5 for the reaction to them, and she always makes some good-if-obvious points that probably aren't obvious to The Gaming Community.

Adham Nu'man - 2014-06-16
I approach the "better representation of women" in videogames from a narrative aspect, rather than from a concern that this is thwarting the minds of our youth.

Basically, I'd like better written videogames in general because I do think the medium has potential for delivering powerful narratives, but it's mostly wasted in pandering to the retarded tastes of male teenagers. There is a market for more adult gamers now and a market that includes women and LGBT people, but for every The Last of Us you continue to have hundreds of stupid games like Gears of War.

Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
I agree completely.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
>>Why is it this lady looks like she can't hold back a smirk when she's talking? Like she knows she's lying and takes some joy in the deception.

Oh boy. Here we go...

>>Comments already disabled? Wow.

Okay, so you think she's supposed to let the same thing happen over and over again because she owes the tough guy community a chance to change their approach and not be assholes all of sudden? WOW!

>>Why can't art imitate life, even the ugly parts?

I applaud your desire for hard-hitting realism in video games, and I'll hope you'll consider contributing to my new video game kickstarter project "LOUSY TEMP JOB".

But art CAN imitate life. Because the good news is that Anita Sarkeesian is just an academic making dull videos on youtube. As a "pop culture critic" (her phrase), she has no authority over anything, and her videos are simple expressions of opinion that are by definition supposed to be discussed and even disagreed with.

It's cool. She can't take away your video games, Bro.

Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
Actually I'm going to partially recant my last post because I'm still not convinced that "narrative" and "games" are a good mix at all.

Adham Nu'man - 2014-06-16
I agree with Sarkeesian that most videogames are horrible turds, but I understand a lot of people not liking her.

Look at this guy's video that I randomly found: http://youtu.be/CPVjgTG1Rqg

Even despite the clickbait title, in under 10 minutes he makes some good, clearly explained points in favor of diversity in videogames. He does this in a pleasant, even mildly amusing (for a youtube video of the kind) way that is more likely to "change hearts and minds" and he did not require a Kickstarter project to fund his "research".

Still, she's pretty amusing and I always enjoy her videos.

Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
MY big complaint with her videos is that they're pretty intellectually dishonest, which is a bit frustrating because they don't need to be because she's more or less right to begin with.

infinite zest - 2014-06-16
Bummer about the comments being disabled. What's the point of creating a topic if it can't be discussed. I can only imagine some of the misogynistic/trollish bullshit that'd pop up on there, but it's still an opinion one should be able to post, just like it's your choice to kill the prostitute you just fucked.

I'm not going to argue with her statistics about uncritical internalization at the end, but it wasn't the case with me at least.. our house had a PS2 and Grand Theft Auto 3.. I can't remember if they were actually prostitutes but it was implied.. I was also dating a girl who had been raped a few years before I met her. Anyway, we're just taking turns playing the game the only way we know how (running around and killing as many people as possible before the cops get us, making jokes about skullfucking the corpses) and there was never a point where either of us thought it was weird if we beat up or shot a girl and stole her money, nor did my thinking change after playing it to "oh well maybe she WAS asking for it when she was RAPED IN REAL LIFE."

I appreciate what she's doing. As funny as Duke3D's pixilated dancers were to make dance and then kill, we weren't thinking with our heads anymore than our dicks (also, you kill a dancer and 3 or 4 monsters suddenly spawn and attack you as punishment) I'm not sure if gamers actually masturbate to NPC nudity or sex scenes. When I stopped playing it'd be like jerking it to in-game Tifa from FF7, but as they get more realistic sexually, so does the potential violence in a world without rules or consequences. The same principal goes for authority figures, like GTA's cops, which take maybe 2 or 3 shots to die whereas your avatar can take at least 20. Cops in real life, different story. Just because I can take down 30 cops and listen to NWA doesn't mean I devaluate the power and authority of real-life cops.

These are great discussions though. We hail a strong female character like Laura Croft, but Tits is probably the first thing we think of. We think of Mario and we don't think chubby.. probably moustache or plumbers hat.

Xenocide - 2014-06-17
Yes, it's such a shame comments are disabled. Just think of all the deep, thought-provoking rape threats we're missing.

Cena_mark - 2014-06-17
There's always going to be trolls Xenocide. She promised a dialogue and there's no such thing here. All we get are long lectures. Its like she wishes she was a professor and is using Kickstarter to pay for her advanced degrees so she can talk down to people and get paid for it.

infinite zest - 2014-06-17
Also I don't understand exactly what her agenda is: most "male dominated" sports have cheerleaders, girls in bikinis holding up "round x" signs.. is it misogynistic? Yes. A counterpoint could be used in the fine arts, like Ballet: the males are usually periphery characters, like NPCs, and the one male dancer is usually used as nothing more than a springboard for the female's final dance.

I'd like very much for a videogame to feature a homosexual protagonist on a quest to get his partner back or something. But much like the MPAA it's not as easy as it sounds (can't remember the doc but it basically says "heterosexual rom com? PG-PG13." "Homosexual rom com? R." And she mentions at the beginning that the overt misogyny doesn't mean that the games aren't good or fun.

So would a utopia be a free world where we could murder and steal and fuck scantily clad heterosexual and homosexual males as well

Oscar Wildcat - 2014-06-17
Well, with a bitmap editor and a little patience, I'm sure you can modify Donkey Kong so Mario buttfucks the monkey while the princess looks on dejectedly.

kingofthenothing - 2014-06-17
I totally would play lousy temp job, the game. It would probably kick "papers, please" in the pants. "You didn't wear enough PPE! Workman's comp won't cover THIS injury! GAME OVER."

The thing is, I don't even play a lot of modern video games anymore. I haven't played the GTA series since 4, because 4 was boring as fuck and I hated that stupid fat cousin.

She might have some good points but she goes about them completely wrong. "I'm just going to flat out say something is just a rule of the universe and you can't disagree with me because if you do that makes you the bad person" is pretty much her entire argument. She makes it sound like using currency to buy good and services is demeaning to women, because it just is, man. That's not a solid foundation for a lecture.

I don't know where she's trying to go with this, other than to just rile people up, and she does a good job of that, to be sure. I just don't see that getting people riled up is all that useful in the grand scheme of things.

infinite zest - 2014-06-17
Also if I remember correctly, the girls DID fight back if you hit them, just like the male NPCs. Obviously it's about two punches and they're dead, but it's not like the females would take out their tits saying "please please don't kill me I'll suck your dick." And the historical characters? Those were concubines, which, like it or lump it, were very common in God of War's age. The Vietnamese prostitutes who know about 5 english words pertaining to "suck" or "fuck" and "money?" Also historically accurate.

If video game history eventually gains the status of something taught in universities, like art or film history, a game like GTAV might be used as a good example of what Los Angeles was like around 2013. Assuming it's a "utopia" like I mentioned above, a student might ask why the girls are nothing but ornamental ragdolls, just like when we had to read Huckleberry Finn, raising our hands saying "I thought we weren't supposed to say the word 'Nigger.'" The teacher would reply in either case, "well, those were different times, unfortunately that's just how it was."

infinite zest - 2014-06-17
Also (sorry.. this is just really interesting to me) the GTA3 I had did have a number of strong females.. I didn't get too far but at least the mission I could never pass involved a girl who was way more badass and would do all the shooting, all the while calling the player a limp-dick shithead or something. When I finally beat the mission he kind of casually hits on her (or maybe it's the other way around) but in either case it doesn't end with romance.

Maybe playing GTA for the missions is the equivalent to reading Playboy for the articles, but it seems like her actual "research" involves about as much gameplay as getting your mom and dad to play it. Run around, see what I can hit "OH NO I DID NOT JUST STEAL THAT CAR!! OH THEN I RAN HER OVER!"

Same here: it's like "GTAV, day one 6/10/14: Ran around. Stole cars, can kill both sexes. Can only have sex with females. Research complete."
Saints Row, day one 6/10/14: Ran around, killed people. Can kill both sexes. Can have sex with both sexes. Males seem gay. Research complete."

chumbucket - 2014-06-16
Far Cry 3, "Yes I want to play, just let me put away these four guns and 260 pounds of items I've collected first".
Scrotum H. Vainglorious - 2014-06-16
Anita Sarkeesian
Binro the Heretic - 2014-06-16
I can't believe she didn't at least mention the "Stormlord" games for the Amiga.

They were shitty generic side-scrolling platform jumpers that only sold because they LITERALLY used women as background decoration.

Seriously, there were all these static images of realistic nude women in the background for no reason other than to get teen boys to buy the games.
Old_Zircon - 2014-06-16
I can't remember if she's used clips of Gals Panic before but she should.

craptacular - 2014-06-16
Binro you usually have good opinions, do you agree or disagree with her?

Binro the Heretic - 2014-06-17
I agree the gaming industry perpetuates a lot of negative values and does so because they think it will make their products more appealing to younger heterosexual males.

Jet Bin Fever - 2014-06-16
dairyqueenlatifah - 2014-06-16
Fuck this cunt and all the morons who defend her.
Adham Nu'man - 2014-06-16
Jesus bro, it's only a videogame.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
You know, I don't feel like I'm "defending" Anita Sarkeesian when I point out that she's only a critic and that she has every right and good reason to disable her comments. These are just simple statements of obvious fact. I don't like her videos, and don't usually watch them.

However, I never fail to gain true delight from pointing out the bigotry and stupidity of you and others like you when you treat us all to another extravagant display of purple-faced lizard-brained lunatic rage. The reaction these dull academic videos elicit is always the real story.

Spaceman Africa - 2014-06-16
Hey man you seem angry

Binro the Heretic - 2014-06-16
Hey, King of Nothing, you see Dairy Queen Latifah's comment?

That's why Sarkeesian disables comments on he YouTube channel. It would just be an overwhelming stream of shit like that.

Mingled liberally with remarks about how ugly she is and needs to get raped, of course.

themilkshark - 2014-06-16
It sucks being a virgin, but at least you have a hand to jerk it with!

Cena_mark - 2014-06-17
Anita just brings out the misogyny in otherwise normal people. I sure as hell am not a scummy PUA guy, but having to listen to Sarskeezian makes me just as bad for a few minutes.

TeenerTot - 2014-06-17
Indeed, Cena. She was asking for it by having opinions.

Cena_mark - 2014-06-17
I don't mind opinionated women. I wouldn't mind a woman president. SHE is just super obnoxious and awful. She's setting women's rights backwards.

kingofthenothing - 2014-06-17
Yeah, I see the comment, but it's not like he threatened to dig up her grandmother's corpse and rape the bones. I mean "fuck you" is an easy thing to say and easy to shrug off.

I think it's just kind of hypocritical to assume the mantle of a social justice crusader and then preemptively back down from any form of disagreement before it even begins. If anything, she could let people foam at the mouth and be stupid just so they can make themselves look bad and thus give her more legitimacy.

I think it's also kind of weird that some people are acting as if understanding women's issues is the key to getting laid in the 21st century. Because yeah, that's what it's all about. Guys getting their rocks off. What else could it ever be about?

I'm taking a weird stance here but I'm calling it now: I'm pretty sure she's just a troll. She shits on her own talking points and she knows it. She's not trying to help. She just wants the attention. She's got some mental sickness that they'll come to diagnose 20 or 30 years from now as the same sickness that compels people to enter reality t.v. shows.

Binro the Heretic - 2014-06-17
King of Nothing,

Do evolutionists "owe" it to creationists to debate them constantly over the same exact points time and again. Or do they "owe" it to them to endure endless streams of outright hate and rage directed against them?

Do same-sex marriage advocates "owe" those things to hate-filled evangelicals?

Do non-white people "owe" those things to white supremacist groups?

No, they do not.

Do you feel assholes are automatically entitled to shit up someone's YouTube channel with slurs, threats of rape & murder and argument ad hominem?

They are not.

Do you feel the target should endure it all in the name of free speech?

They should not.

Ms. Sarkeesian is not debating. She is making observations. If you want to dispute her observations, nobody is stopping you. If you want to discuss and debate with others over her observations, there are lots of places you can go to do that. Hell, we've been debating it right here since this video flew out of the hopper.

If I were to tell you I enjoy the music of a particular band, I would be in no way obligated to stand there while you tell me how much they suck and how much I suck for enjoying them and I certainly wouldn't have to invite you into my house so you could continue to do so.

Quad9Damage - 2014-06-24
Enabled comments is a privilege, not a right. She gave people that privilege, but even in the Kickstarter video there were /b/tards, PUAs, MRAs and assorted fat nerds screaming about violating her with their virgin dicks.

I don't agree with her. I find her annoying and blatantly manipulative. But I can see why she shut off feedback. If she were to reopen the floodgates it'd just be the same garbage. You can't talk to those idiots. You can't debate them. Rape threats aren't intelligent discourse. I'm sure people who have been raped don't want to read through floods of horrific rape/murder scenarios, just as I'm sure a hardcore feminist wouldn't want said horrific rape/murder scenarios clinging to her channel like the body odor these manbabies leave in whatever chairs they occupy.

EvilHomer - 2014-06-16
I have no opinion on this video.
Binro the Heretic - 2014-06-16
That sounds like...NEUTRAL talk to me!

oddeye - 2014-06-16
I have no opinion on either this video or your comment. I have no opinion on anything at all. I have the absolute lowest amount of opinions about anything, anywhere, from any possible time.

I have so little opinion about this that I made this post, which I have no opinion on.

Oscar Wildcat - 2014-06-16

EvilHomer - 2014-06-16
Neutrality is a prop in vidya games. :(

Woops, I mean :|

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
I neither love nor hate Anita Sarkeesian's face.

spikestoyiu - 2014-06-16
I really hate her face. To be fair, if she were a dude, I'd hate his face.

Video games are often stupid and I think that's great.
fluffy - 2014-06-16
If she were a dude would you feel it necessary to say that?

CornOnTheCabre - 2014-06-16
Have you posted on here before?

oddeye - 2014-06-16
In general: Videogames are sexist because videogamers are sexiest because people in real-life are sexist. Same for homophobia, racism and pretty much any segregation you can name.

What's wrong with pointing that out?

SteamPoweredKleenex - 2014-06-16
Videogamers are sexiest?

You need to get out more.

EvilHomer - 2014-06-16
I think she has a really nice face. She's cute. I'd totally tap her, in a respectful, emotionally connected, mutually empowered manner.

spikestoyiu - 2014-06-16
If I hated Dude Anita's face as much as I hate Anita's face (and I really hate it), then yes, I absolutely would. Actually, even if I didn't hate it as much, I still would. Because other people are having serious discussion and I hate her face.

spikestoyiu - 2014-06-16
You know what... I've publicly hated male faces on this website before. Guaranteed.

Kid Fenris - 2014-06-16
I like the idea behind these videos, but they're getting to be really drawn-out and basic in terms of the analysis offered.

I've lost interest, so I'm OK if someone spoils me. Who wins: tropes or women?
themilkshark - 2014-06-16
I grew up with 2 sisters who I love and respect, and I'm also really kinky so I find objectifying women intensely sexy. That being said I'm disgusted by everything presented in this video. I'm also disgusted by the neckbeard rage on POEtv. Go to a bar and fucking learn to talk to girls.
Jet Bin Fever - 2014-06-16
haha. I love how a not-especially-well-produced series of videos about videogames really brings out the rage in so many impotent man-children. We would like to think that we're immune on our little Web 1.0 island, but apparently the disease arrived here long long ago.

Nominal - 2014-06-16
I was hoping web 1.0 would be immune to the disease of internet social justice where vindictive smugness trumps any form of meaningful caring or activism.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
Oh boy! Nominal's here!

Shoebox Joe - 2014-06-18
Nominal, I'm certain if you keep saying that over and over again they will change their method on the internet where nothing matters.

craptacular - 2014-06-16
I agree with everything she says. I suspect my own knee-jerk, indignant dislike of her points is the same as most of the male viewers, namely that I feel as though my own nature, my own socialization, and my own sexuality is being questioned. It's the same sort of reaction that Neo-Cons have to Liberals and Lib issues when confronted with clear indisputable facts. Global warming is scientifically examinable and obvious, the facts bear it out, yet conservatives plug their ears to it because they don't want to have to realign their own opinions to what's really true. Some video here on PoeTV already demonstrated how, when confronted with the truth, people of a certain viewpoint will refuse to budge from their initially held understanding of a certain thing. This is the same principle here.
You can deny that sexual objectification occurs in video games, at your own ignorance. You can accept that it happens in the limited understanding that a male can achieve, and continue to act in your own objectifying nature. Or you can learn more and attempt to fix yourself.
I think what's most scary about what she presents is that I can identify right away the small ways I objectify my own girlfriend, perhaps in ways I have picked up from videogames over the years.
So no hate here, and to the dissenters above, you're the equivalent of an ostriche sticking his head in the sand.
Monchiles Monchiles - 2014-06-16
I grew up on a steady diet of video games, anime, manga, and even books that catered to the very specific desires of young men. I ended up having a lot of fucked up views on women. Having someone break down the subtext of the media I enjoy and reveal the lessons I internalized on a subliminal level makes me feel powerless and stupid. Indifference or even anger would be preferable to the painful self introspection these videos make me go through.

Adham Nu'man - 2014-06-16
Whoah! Monchiles Monchiles, didn't you disappear years ago? Are you a ghost?

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
As a single man in his mid 50s, I sure could have used some of these insights maybe 30 years ago.

Potrod - 2014-06-17
Is there a difference between physical attraction and sexual objectification? I feel like 99% of the population objectifies their partner to some degree, and that's fine. You can still respect them as people.

Riskbreaker - 2014-06-16
"Women are being honor killed in other parts of the world, but by doing these pointless videos about stupid video games i'm doing a greater good to women everywhere!"
Nominal - 2014-06-16
Has she donated her surplus ,000 to any worthwhile women's causes yet?

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
Nominal, you lovable crusty old timer, didn't we go through this last time?

Watch her Ted talk, where she very explicitly lays out what she did with the surplus. In my opinion, and quite possibly according to the terms of kickstart, it would be a violation to do anything with the surplus other than spend it on what it was for, Tropes vs. Women. What she did was upgrade the equipment and expand the scope of the endeavor, from five videos to thirteen videos, or something like that, plus other materials. It's all in her Ted Talk.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-17
>>"Women are being honor killed in other parts of the world, but by doing these pointless videos about stupid video games i'm doing a greater good to women everywhere!"

Artists are being murdered and jailed in other parts of the world, but by belittling pop culture critics on youtube, I'm striking a blow for free expression.

Xenocide - 2014-06-17
Women are being honor killed in other parts of the world, so let's ignore them, unless we can use their suffering to score cheap argument points against feminists on the internet. I'm sure being used to prop up some neckbeard's rant on r/mensrights is exactly what those dead ladies would have wanted.

Sorry Anita, you're not allowed to care about anything except the absolute worst things on Earth. Once you've single-handedly ended honor killings, pedophilia, and racism, then you can complain about video ga-oops, sorry, then you'll need to get to work on climate change. Chop, chop.

spikestoyiu - 2014-06-17
I love that she raised over 100k to make a handful of talking head videos covering shit everyone already knew. Apparently it took seven months to put this one together. Can't wait until episode 13 comes out in six years.

Riskbreaker - 2014-06-17
You guys have no arguments to defend her gimmicks, and you know it. But hey, this is all for some silly internet wars and not for actually helping women in any way shape or form, so it's all cool. Irrelevant bullshit is the basic foundation of the internet, i miss the days when it was all about porn and downloading music to piss off Lars Ulrich.

Nominal - 2014-06-16
How is this not exactly the same argument that religious groups have been making against pornography in general for decades?

"Because the interactive nature of video games leads to an increased chance of kids mimicking what they see in the real world!"

Okay, how is that not exactly the same argument that parents groups have been making against violence in video games?

I think what we're seeing here is what happens when a new generation is too hip to buy into religion, but still retains the same urge to vindictively condemn others for a sense of superiority while hiding behind a superficial claim to virtue. You set up an unquestionable set of rules that mark others as morally inferior when they break them regardless of any real world effect that breaking those rules has. Anyone who shows too much skin in public is a harlot whore agent of Satan, and anyone who puts attractive bikini women cartoons in video games with anything less than 6 dimensions of nuanced backstory is a neckbeard fedora virgin shitlord.

"Images of women for titillation purposes reduces them to objects!" I mean, really? That's the exact same line that religious groups use against pornography, framing it as victimizing women when the old claim of sex itself being evil stopped working. The hip new claim for righteous indignation is that sexuality = sexism.

Is titillation ever acceptable in media? Only when there's a story behind it? That's the exact same series of events that made the porn industry start putting in plots to their stuff. It's just history repeating itself.

I agree that video game players tend to be less mature and socially inept, but that's exactly why this movement is taking off with games. It's the only form of media where the fans are socially unaware enough to honestly believe that any of the stuff they play harms real life women. How are you supposed to know women aren't being harmed if you never talk to any? Anyone who knows any well adjusted girls knows that they laugh at stuff like this before picking the female character with the biggest boobs.
John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-16
>>I think what we're seeing here is what happens when a new generation is too hip to buy into religion, but still retains the same urge to vindictively condemn others for a sense of superiority while hiding behind a superficial claim to virtue.

They criticize the video games? Yeah, that's pretty vindictive, all right!

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-17
>>How is this not exactly the same argument that religious groups have been making against pornography in general for decades?

>>"Because the interactive nature of video games leads to an increased chance of kids mimicking what they see in the real world!"

>>Okay, how is that not exactly the same argument that parents groups have been making against violence in video games?

Parents groups and religious groups are notorious for advocating legislation and boycotts and whatnot. If she's just a critic criticizing, which is all I've ever seen her do, that's a big difference from church groups and religious groups.

What I keep seeing is people infering arguments in Anita Sarkeesian's work that I've never seen, and I don't know what to make of that. Maybe next time this comes around, I need to be more prepared.

TeenerTot - 2014-06-17
"Anyone who knows any well adjusted girls knows that they laugh at stuff like this before picking the female character with the biggest boobs."

Fuck no.

Riskbreaker - 2014-06-17
Call me a fossil, but the first thing i notice when i play a game is....the gameplay. How it controls, how it plays. Considering video games are less about that these days i can see why i'm a relic of the past.

zerobackup - 2014-06-17
Twilight is unrealistic bullshit that makes girls feel good.

Vidya Games have unrealistic bullshit that makes boys feel good.

Does everything have to be sanitized and "de-triggered" for the masses to avoid hurting people's feelings?

How about the RPG games that let you choose the gender/sexuality of the protagonist?

How about the fighting games that let you choose strong female protagonists to the fight HUGELY muscular men? Is that not sending the wrong message to young boys that don't have the physique of a bodybuilder?

She also completely ignores that men & women are both reduced to 2 dimensional cutouts in 95% of games, that's just shitty writing.

She makes good points throughout, but if you want to have a real discussion about gender and gaming, it seems these things shouldn't be omitted.
John Holmes Motherfucker - 2014-06-17
FEminists do not love twilight.

zerobackup - 2014-06-17
They don't, but I'm saying these things are both feel good candy targeted to a particular subset of the population.

Gun shoot boom, boobs, haha.

Awwwww, Bella loves Edward *heart*

If you live your life based on works of fiction designed to elicit a particular response, you're gonna be kinda fucked up.

TeenerTot - 2014-06-17
You're right. Absurd love stories are exactly the same as violent fantasies.

zerobackup - 2014-06-17
Yeah I consider them both fantasies that have little to do with reality. If you think video games have more influence than books/movies/music to young people today that is one thing, I don't.

I get the points she was making and some of them need to be said, if video games want to be taken as seriously the community needs to grow out of adolescent level power fantasies. That being said, it's not going to be an overnight thing, and "trashy" games that cater to that audience will never go away just like trashy romance novels or films won't either.

Honestly, it's cool that we are being told to look at what kind of values these things are teaching young people. I think the discussion alone is going to get a lot of people in the industry thinking about these issues more.

What would really help is if women were hired and involved in games production at every level so the whole thing becomes less of a 'boys club' where immature behavior is seen as part of the gaming culture.

zerobackup - 2014-06-17
Ugh, damn forgot one. Comics! They were going to destroy our youth in the 1950s and they got scared of government oversight so they cleaned it up with the Comics Code. That's not the type of thing I want to see happen to video games, there is a ratings system in place so games geared towards young children don't have violence/sex/drug use and mature games have a place as well. The money is rolling in, these issues aren't going to go away they're just going to get bigger.

ashtar. - 2014-06-17
The feminists I know fucking hate twilight because it holds up an abusive relationship as a romantic ideal.

The stories we encounter and tell affect how we see ourselves and our world. This was true in the days of Beowulf and Gilgamesh, and it's true today. I'm sort of amazed that this is a controversial claim.

EvilHomer - 2014-06-17
Guys, guys. Why does Ms Sarkeesian always do this to us? She always causes poeTV to devolve into a bickering morass of people who think she's a bitch, and people who think everyone who thinks she's a bitch is a chauvinist rape-monger. She brings out the irrational tribal hatred in everyone, on both sides of the issue. Does everything have to be MRAs vs Feminazis? Do we really need to fight?

Sputum - 2014-06-17
get fucked, brony

Riskbreaker - 2014-06-17
Some people think of themselves as the moral police of the internet, they also think their armchair activism makes any difference (it doesn't) Most of us here, if not all of us, agree that sexism sucks, and that women deserve better portrayals in fiction. But her arguments are empty (as her soul, have at you!) and all this artificial controversy she has created is for her own sake.

My favorite thing about all this is how the video game industry, leaving aside indie hipsters doing terrible indie games nobody plays anyway, doesn't give two flying fucks about this shit.

Riskbreaker - 2014-06-17
Also, she will be surprised that most women, and men, who play video games really don't care if we play as any gender whatsoever, or as a monkey or as an alien. We actually care about a little thing called "gameplay" in these games.

Spaceman Africa - 2014-06-17
"that most women, and men, who play video games really don't care if we play as any gender whatsoever, or as a monkey or as an alien" speak for yourself.

ashtar. - 2014-06-17
Because the people that disagree with me are wrong. And stupid.

Shoebox Joe - 2014-06-18
5 stars for Evilhomer's and the following comment build up for a reference.

Also, Riskbreaker, yes you are old enough to know gameplay is an important part, but if you ever remember deciding certain hobbies were for girls while growing up due to being saturated with girls, then that's all you need to know why this topic is important.

Also, my niece has grown out of the "princess" phase as far as I know. When she was playing gender neutral games you could tell she wasn't interested in the finely laced doily gowns of the Disney princess toys that are strewn about the house. She even likes the idea of playing as a girl character (OH MY GOD!! THAT CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!)

Riskbreaker, please tell us how you were as a child. I'm certain when you decided you were going to do things that it was "obvious" to you that what ever was advertised to your gender would be easier to get into.

Shoebox Joe - 2014-06-18
I don't know if I want to apologize about implying Riskbreaker is sexist and/or clueless but his/her comment is really grating me.

"that most women, and men, who play video games really don't care if we play as any gender whatsoever, or as a monkey or as an alien"

Especially since I remember my sister loving the shit out of tetris and any game that didn't have a gender specified.

But nope, we have to pretend that everyone who plays games or has an interest in them are socially disconnected. Games are not for fun. They are something to do.

I haven't really followed Anita that much (I remember her lego video where a commenter here revealed her to be a bit of a dishonest, baiting cunt) but I wouldn't mind her being replaced by someone with a bit more stronger direction on the mechanics of bigotry and discrimination. Her direction seems to be alright.

That guy - 2014-06-23
Did one of you stupids disagree with ashtar? You are wrong.

Hooker - 2014-06-17
Why did I know this video would cause this?

I agree with OZ on the videos themselves. It's always really frustrating to be listening to someone argue about something you agree with and do such an awful job at it.
memedumpster - 2014-06-17
She couldn't have accomplished that mission harder by flying a 757 into poeTV.
CornOnTheCabre - 2014-06-17
Do any of y'all need Tiger Balm? I think some of your knees are about to fly off of their joints from jerking so hard, and the rest of you are probably going to blow a rotator cuff from patting yourself on the back so much.
Syd Midnight - 2014-06-18
"Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism." - Helen Lewis
That guy - 2014-06-23
"Any comments on any article about any feminism justify any feminism" - Helen Any Lewis

Quad9Damage - 2014-06-22
I like how she keeps using Jimmy De Santa as a visual depiction of the average gamer because I like to think the people who bombed her with rape threats all look and sound something like Michael's son.

She has good points. Games by and large do appeal to adolescent cranial wank regions. Nerds who deny this are being willfully ignorant. When I invite Franklin out on a man date and end up driving at full speed with a three star wanted level while drunk off my ass, having exhausted the maximum allowed number of bar options, I'm fully aware of the appeal. Video games are about escaping our realities as working wage slaves with bills and/or children to worry about, but the games often go completely overboard by throwing us into worlds as seen through the eyes of a 14-year-old boy with a perpetually leaky boner.

The problem with Anita Sarkeesian is that she doesn't present these good points well at all. Her persuasive techniques are lacking. Her videos are all about showing us a near half hour "worst example" montage, often taken out of context. She throws in that disclaimer at the beginning about how it's possible to criticize something while still enjoying it, but the vibe I always get is that doesn't enjoy any of these games at all and that the crux of her argument is that you shouldn't either.

A primary tenant of a persuasive piece, whether it's in the form of an essay or a video, is devoting equal time to presenting and understanding the other side of the argument. The reason this is important is fairness, but it also allows the author of the piece to analyze counter-arguments and deconstruct them, thus boosting their credibility with their targeted audience. Sarkeesian doesn't do this. She reserves the last few minutes to barely address any counter-arguments under an implied presumption that she's won and there is no need. "You are wrong. The more likely you are to dismiss these things the more likely you are to not care about sexual violence." Roll credits next to a dude slapping a woman around. Uh huh.

In 'Red Dead Redemption' you can hogtie a hooker and put her on the railroad tracks for a hidden Achievement/Trophy, yes. But Sarkeesian doesn't bring up the fact that this is a very well hidden Thing and that John Marston is much more often presented with opportunities to gun down murderers who are trying to kill hookers in the shitty cynical lawless transitioning world that John lives in. Sarkeesian mentions nothing at all about Bonnie, who is not only a strong, independent, business-minded, unmarried ranch owner but barely sexualized, if at all. Sarkeesian shows us that clip of John watching the picture show but doesn't explain that it's a parody of shitty attitudes.

A counter to this of course is that Rockstar sucks at satire and always has.

In the GTA series I've never killed a hooker to get my money back aside from one time I did it in GTA III to see what happens. In V or any other sandbox game I don't run around slugging women in the face because I don't feel right about it. The other day in V I was driving around one of the desert towns and came across a Boxer, sitting on its haunches, minding its own business. I didn't shoot or run over the dog because Boxers are my favorite breed and killing animals in general makes me feel gross, just like killing hookers or strippers I've driven home makes me feel equally as gross. My point is, these assholish possibilities are optional. Aside from that shitty mean-spirited mandatory "advanced interrogation" mission, the asshole you are in GTA V is limited to the inner/outer asshole you bring into it, even when you're free roaming as Trevor.

Anita Sarkeesian has an agenda.These videos aren't aimed at persuading gamers, male or otherwise, but feminists who already agree with her. It's choir preaching of the highest caliber. Sarkeesian is like a gender-swapped feminist CAPalert guy who uses "1000 examples at once" Powerpoint presentations instead of thermometers and bullet-pointed sins laid out like traffic citations. Her ideas are good, but her conveyance of them is awful. She is good at getting shitty people to vomit up their true colors online, but she is also very annoying. Games are immature, but so is Sarkeesian's way of showing us.
That guy - 2014-06-23
If there was a Glen Beck on the other end of the political spectrum, what would that person talk about and how would that person's eyebrows look?
Caminante Nocturno - 2014-07-09
These videos are how stupid people waste their money.
zerobackup - 2014-09-05
Hey, where's part 2?

I came to poetv for a bile-filled ragefest at 5am and I'm now unfulfilled.
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