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Tags:bill maher, Elton John, Liberals, Real Time with Bill Maher
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Comment count is 130
Pillager - 2015-03-29
I'd have gone for an SJW tag, myself.
dairyqueenlatifah - 2015-03-29
Me too, but you see, "SJW" makes a certain portion of PoeTV cry now.

Void 71 - 2015-03-29
Then here are some alternative tags: Cultural Marxism, Frankfort School, Critical Theory

Change - 2015-03-29
its funny because people bitching about sjw would have landed pretty fucking solidly on poe-red

Nominal - 2015-03-30
Mocking moral crusaders is a past time not to be blemished.

Change - 2015-03-30
sure it is

watching liberals bitch about sjw is fucking great

EvilHomer - 2015-03-30
Change is mad, you guys.

Nikon - 2015-03-31
This was very good. It also needs the SJW tag.

Change - 2015-03-31
no, homer, you're the mad one, about sjws

that's why it's funny, you're the joke

Spaceman Africa - 2015-03-29
oh bill
That guy - 2015-03-29
Ok this wasn't great wit, exactly.
But also, you're a sack of shit as usual.

Which part hurt your feelings?

Spaceman Africa - 2015-03-29
His dumb argument that you shouldn't attack people "on your side", because god forbid we lose such vital allies like Dolce and Gabana after they say some stupid shit. He then went on some tired shtick about "political correctness!!!" while leaking smug from every pore on his body. Bill Maher is such a boring fuck.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
He is basically saying pick your battles and don't attack people for having an opinion, especially if those people have no authority.

Spaceman Africa - 2015-03-29
Right people do have opinions, but sometimes those opinions are dumb and wrong

IrishWhiskey - 2015-03-29
When one of the world's most famous gay couples says that gay families don't work, that is a matter that is going to get some attention, where gay parents are reasonably going to criticize their ignorance.

Why is sending a tweet too "over the top" a reaction for Bill Maher? Not buying their clothes is actually the least someone can do. And why is it fine for him to use his show to go after Donald Trump and Ann Coulter, but Dolce and Gabanna are off-limits to gay parents whose parenting is criticized because they should have more important things to do?

That guy - 2015-03-29
Yeah Maher is obnoxious, SA, I won't argue with that.

I'm not sure it's more obnoxious than the holier-than-thou, hair-splitting hypercorrection that he's complaining about, but Maher's obnoxious. He's not always trying to move to the left of everyone, at least.

God forbid anyone break from the cutting edge of the left back toward the center. Let's boycott D&G!! Every cause is an equally important one!!

That guy - 2015-03-29
(I'm not taking a stance that gay families shouldn't adopt. I don't really know or care about the d&g thing- so I probably used a bad example there)

That guy - 2015-03-29
I probably should have picked the hot peppers = racism thing.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
I was interpreting what Maher said, but on the subject of D&G I basically think it stems from a really macho and insecure place.

I don't think they should be immune to criticism but I agree with the sentiment that no one should care what celebrities think. That's not what they're getting paid for. They are getting paid to be in stupid movies and design clothes and sing. I know this would require a huge movement against the idea of fame itself but honestly I could give two diarrhea squirts what some dumb cunt of a designer thinks about anything, no matter how famous. I would hope that the world would embrace this thought.

Xenocide - 2015-03-29
Oh Boo hoo hoo, liberalism has left me behind and I'm on my way to becoming one of those old-guard conservatives who whines about how the left "betrayed me" when really I just got so swept up in my own prejudices that I didn't notice when the movement outgrew me.

Maher is fast becoming the next Dennis Miller. I give it five years before he's on Fox giving Sean Hannity verbal rimjobs.
zurf - 2015-03-29

dairyqueenlatifah - 2015-03-29
Since when is "liberalism" a "movement"?

Also, where is anything he says wrong? Did you watch the video? Do you honestly not think this shit is absurd and deserving of ridicule?

Shoebox Joe - 2015-03-29
I believe Bill Mahir is deserving of ridicule for lumping the Elton John vs. case with some pretty petty shit.

Just because they're both gay doesn't entitle the argument to be invalid all due to some stupid implied showcase of solidarity. That is literally like applauding a gay child who fears losing their family and attempts to keep them by self-admitting to a straight camp. It completely ignores the issue of individual rights for the sake of an implied opinion all because the actions fall into a preferred ideology.

That fact that Bill Mahir thinks this case deserves to be lumped with the other news bits is proof enough that he is being a loathsome piece of shit. Especially since a lot of anti-LGBTQ are against said people adopting.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
The movement hasn't outgrown anyone, it hides from literally every issue that has any relevance whatsoever.

It's why I will never vote for either party ever again and dedicate my life to encouraging their decay and utter destruction.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
And by "movement" I actually mean "whiny bitches".

IrishWhiskey - 2015-03-29
Yeah, those liberals, having no sense of humor over a 'synthetic children' joke.

Oh wait, it wasn't a joke, and they didn't just comment on IVF, they said that gay parents shouldn't have children period, as non-traditional families without a mother and father don't work. Which coming from a famous gay couple gives tons of ammo to political activists trying to make it harder for gay families and their kids. Seems reasonable to me that gay parents would speak against that.

"Maybe there are bigger battles to fight," said the man making lazy gay jokes about Elton John's son because his dad criticized a fashion shop.

Xenocide - 2015-03-30
"DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO." Ha ha, did I wander into Youtube comments by mistake.

Like, the more I think about it, the more apt the Miller comparison is. Miller was also beloved by lefties for being smug and clever for a while, but then at some point the punchline to all of his jokes became "HOW COME WE'RE NOT KILLING MORE MUSLIMS" except that part wasn't a joke. And slowly it became apparent that this guy was just another "I'm so enlightened and so wise not like those darkies and towelheads" asshole who thought that because he pulled the lever for the dems a few times he was somehow immune to being bigoted. It's almost like Maher is doing a dramatic reenactment.

Like, I don't know, I think when two rich powerful people publicly say gays shouldn't have basic rights, that's a pretty big deal. Just because they got rich and powerful selling clothes doesn't change what they are. A bunch of people with the same mindset just passed a law in Indiana, but I guess if it turned out they were all designers that would make it funny and not a big deal?

magnesium - 2015-03-30
You know, I always thought Maher was like this. At least since the 90's. He's always been a self-declared liberal who's really rather conservative. He just likes weed and atheism so he gets a million passes.

Bort - 2015-03-30
A smarmier-than-thou contrarian? Yeah, that sounds about right. It just so happens that the Right generates more idiocy, so a comedian who prefers his fruit hanging as low as possible will go after them somewhat more.

Old_Zircon - 2015-03-30
"Liberalism" in the 21st century is a lifestyle marketing demographic. Which is still massively better than neoliberalism.

Meerkat - 2015-03-29
Lost me at "Dame Elton John".
That guy - 2015-03-29
Maher goes for anything joke-shaped, whether there's wit there or not.

IrishWhiskey - 2015-03-30
What's worse is the line: "He recorded a protest song, 'I won't let my son go down on you'."

Elton John's son is four. Why is Maher making a joke about the child giving fellatio? I makes no sense in context at all, aside from being a play on a song title. It's got the shape of a joke, but the wrong target and no actual meaning.

Caminante Nocturno - 2015-03-29
Media Matters trying to lecture The Economist is like a high school kid trying to lecture an adult.
Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
It's like Shia LeBoeuf trying to teach the guys from Jackass how to behave in public.

Nominal - 2015-03-29
Huffington Post lecturing Salon?

That guy - 2015-03-30
Salon lecturing anyone who's ever lifted a finger?

fluffy - 2015-03-30
Media Matters based their complaints about what actual Latinos said, however, and Maher turned those complaints into another shitty racist joke at Latinos' expenses.

Maher is a fucking hack.

Caminante Nocturno - 2015-03-30
None of what you wrote makes their complaint any less laughable.

Scrimmjob - 2015-03-29
Is it just me or is Bill looking really fucking weird nowadays... like weirder than usual?
Caminante Nocturno - 2015-03-29
Bodies change, honey.

Bodies change.

ashtar. - 2015-03-29
They also apparently get greasier and dandruffier, start dressing like carpet salesmen, and move like a jerky animatronic reptillian aliens.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
I'm kind of shocked by some of these stories, namely the college president having to apologize for saying "all lives matter". I will be honest, I cringe when I see the "black lives matter" bullshit because it is basically saying all white people do is say they don't. It's incredibly divisive and it doesn't really respond to the enormous violence problem within the black community which yes, proportionately does outweigh any other. If black lives matter, maybe black people should stop killing each other.

Also, Mexicans who are offended by being stereotyped as liking chili peppers is like Chinese people being offended by people saying they eat rice.

I'm with Bill, fuck all these people.
The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
'Black lives matter' was popularized by a campaign to keep police officers from shooting and killing black people. It's a reference to how we live in a culture that diminishes the worth of life if the person in question isn't white.

When you respond to 'black lives matter' with 'all lives matter', you aren't being helpful or relevant. Yes, all lives *do* matter, but in a context where we're treating certain lives as if they *do not* matter, it's important to reaffirm that no, those lives matter too.

The point of saying 'black lives matter' is to create a space where we can have a conversation about how we act as if they don't. When you respond with 'all lives matter', you're negating that space, and saying that conversation shouldn't even happen.

It's the equivalent of walking into a room where we're talking about how cops are shooting everybody, and saying 'Well, people shoot and kill cops too, why don't you all talk about *that* instead?!'.

Because that conversation is already happening, and has been happening for as long as anyone can remember.

simon666 - 2015-03-29
Honest question: What are the statistics by race of people killed by police? How many white, latino, black, asian, etc.?

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
We don't have accurate figures on that because police in the US aren't federally required to keep track of how many people they've killed.

Yes, I'm completely serious.

Void 71 - 2015-03-29
The left's lunatic fringe has always used crude Saul Alinsky-style tactics against the opposition. That it uses these same tactics against less culturally obsessed leftists is more amusing than shocking, especially if you've read their bible (Rules for Radicals). If you're in the public spotlight and break any of their rigid cultural rules, even by accident, you will be smeared into a forced apology.

That guy - 2015-03-29
Hippo's response to ROUS' claims of divisive rhetoric is precisely the tendentiousness that causes the left to eat itself, because anything short of PERFECT conscientiousness is a HUGE PROBLEM.

What's the campaign to keep police officers from shooting unarmed black youths? A slogan.

You're either with us or against us.

A more positive type of liberalism could take that University president's misstatement or rephrasing and put a positive spin on it, or ignore it, or what have you.
Not everything is worth the fucking energy.

I'm sure the right does something similar in its internecine squabbles. But the number of lefties that are always sniffing for less-than-perfect orthodoxy aren't really do any good. That's where all their effort goes, all the time.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
I agree with Void. The idea of shaming famous people into using some kind of hypercorrected, sanitized language after someone makes a statement they don't like, regardless of context is irritating and pointless. It accomplishes nothing.

You aren't going to change anyone's mind on any subject, racism included, by whining about how we have to publicly shame an individual. It's something I've grown increasingly annoyed by over the years. The constant "did you hear what THIS conservative said? You will NEVER believe what they said. Go yell at them about how much you hate them!"

It's basically saying any perceived vitriol deserves vitriol en masse and I disagree over the morality of encouraging that.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
RoUS: Nothing I said was about shaming people or sanitizing language. The only thing I talked about was why 'all lives matter' is not an appropriate response to 'black lives matter'.

That Guy: Black people are being executed by the police. Like, literally. When people respond to their campaign to uplift the value of black life by complaining that they should campaign to uplift the value of *all* life, you might excuse them for being a little irritable about it.

They are literally fighting for their lives. Being respectful is the least you can do.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29

"What's the campaign to keep police officers from shooting unarmed black youths? A slogan."

There's considerably more to the campaign than that.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
Also, yes -- there's a certain pernicious rectitude present in discussions like these; a sense that you're always one verbal hiccup away from being Worse Than Hitler. That's annoying, and -- if you take rejection as personally as I do -- can even be emotionally painful. I get that. I really do.

But look at what just happened here: RoUS said something I thought was incorrect, so I did my best to explain why. And what was your response, That Guy? To characterize my explanation as representative of what causes the left to eat itself; to tell me how I'm blowing everything out of proportion and demanding absolute perfection. Because I decided to explain how I think 'black lives matters' is important -- and 'all lives matters' is an inappropriate response to it.

You want to know what's *actually* eating liberalism? The inability to differentiate between thoughtful criticism and over-the-top rabble-rousing.

Bort - 2015-03-30
Well said, The Great Hippo. The "All Lives Matter" crowd are missing the point in the fashion of people who don't have any interest in understanding the point.

If you say "gay men and women want to marry the people they love", and my response is "so do straight men and women", while what I have said is technically true, it misses the point completely that there is a big disparity between gay folks and straight folks when it comes to marriage, which really was the entire point.

Gmork - 2015-03-30
"The point of saying 'black lives matter' is to create a space where we can have a conversation about how we act as if they don't. "

You got a turd in your pocket? I think by "we" you mean "the racially prejudiced portions of police and society". I'll have that conversation, but unless you were just being uncautious with your words I take exception to your wording.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
Bort: I like that example.

Gmork: I'm at a loss for how you're interpreting what I said. "The point of saying 'black lives matter' is to create a space where people can have a conversation about how society acts as if they don't." -- does that help?

That guy - 2015-03-30
The uncautious words are what make me stir the pot, Hippo. I'm not disagreeing with the gist of what you say, if I think I can get to that through all the chaff. But who knows. You sling hyperbole on everything you say here.

Some university president saying something could be misspeaking, or it could be deliberate derailing, or it could be tone deaf but high-minded. It's not the fourth reich. I'm not that interested in the subtleties of why it's rude.

Your words are sloppy as fuck as well.

"They are literally fighting for their lives. Being respectful is the least you can do."

This is an epic overstatement. Do you hear yourself?

I get the statistics of how cops treat blacks, I think they're real, and I think they're wrong.

I think they're way, way, way more wrong than whether someone used perfectly conscientious rhetoric or not, especially when the outraged left uses despicable rhetoric all of the goddamn time.

It's so much metaphysical battle. The chili peppers magazine cover gripe is a much better example of it, ultimately.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
'This is an epic overstatement. Do you hear yourself?'

You don't think black people in Ferguson -- and in protests all over the country -- aren't *literally* fighting for their lives?

What *do* you think they're fighting for? Free candy?

Bort - 2015-03-30
Well, it's not fighting in the overt sense, and it's not likely that a large number of them will be killed if their protests fail. In that sense it's overstatement and not quite literal.

That said, I'm on your side overall on this. They are peacefully protesting to bring change to a system that places burdens disproportionately on blacks, sometimes fatally. But that makes for a shitty slogan, and not even a very good band name.

Old_Zircon - 2015-03-30
I wish I was shocked by these stories.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-30
I think that the protests were also followed by riots, and when riots happen you need the police.

Everyone has been giving the police shit, including me, in the regard that they need better training. The orders often come from a higher authority as to how to engage with protesters. What they need is policy change and above all to be filmed with badge cameras, which reduces police shenanigans by a HUGE percentage when its done.

I try to look at it from both sides. It's easy to always criticize the police when something goes wrong and yes, people on the force should be held accountable for those things, but the police are also necessary. And they deal with a ton of shit we don't. The whole "black lives matter" slogan doesn't rub me the right way because

a) it ignores the scores of white people the police have also killed and beaten up, and implies that bad things only happen to blacks


b) it is basically a label that, if you don't agree with its sentiment, in that you think it's a way of guilting all white people and you don't want to just jump on board that particular rally cry, you can be labeled racist or not open minded or whatever. I'm really sick of Sharpton and his crew saying if you don't agree with them you are an automatic racist.

Also, according to Department of Justice statistics, attacks on whites across the board are up by 18% within just 2010 and 2011. And they are reluctant to ever admit that black people commit hate crimes on whites ever. It's all a bunch of political bullshit and no one wants to admit that there is ANY problem going the other way as if black people have some kind of magical pass from being racists ever. And no one actually wants to say this because then they will be labeled as not caring about black people and racists themselves.

I am including all this because I don't hate all black people, and I was attacked brutally last year by three black gang members who nearly killed me, probably to get even for Ferguson. I did NOTHING to them. They robbed me and beat me and I very nearly died.

You can all hate me all you want, I really don't care. But this shit is happening. America is falling the fuck apart and it isn't just for blacks. We have a police state that is getting stronger (which liberals in power have done absolutely nothing but pay lip service to curbing by the way) so if you want to complain, why don't you write to Democrats in office and say you have a problem with police getting tanks and military gear. Because most of them didn't give two shits until Ferguson happened and it became apparent Missouri is run by morons.

Black lives matter. Yeah no shit. So does mine.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-30
Also to add to my own personal outrage, one of my best friends, who is an older white man in his 50s, was attacked by the police several years ago in a case of mistaken identity. To give you some background, I think I am trying to balance my feelings with logic as much as possible, and a lot of the emotional outcry from the left on these topics kind of gets to me because I try to be as objective as I can be. And I don't think its objective to jump on anyone who you might perceive as racist and keep trying to shove that opinion because it might be perception more than observation.

You don't want to turn into Bo News.

SolRo - 2015-03-30
I'm gonna let you finish your thinly veiled racism/poor white people crying fest, but I just wanna say that you are getting too old for the internet. It's time you switched to Fox News and only used the internet to send republican conspiracy theories to your younger immoral liberal relatives.

Bort - 2015-03-30
RoUS: I'm glad you worry that you come across as racist, because there is something wrong with what you're posting. I don't think that it's that you're racist, though. You aren't even hearing that, whatever problems white problems might have with police, the black experience is even harsher than the white experience.

Should we be aware of police misconduct where whites are concerned? Sure, nobody's arguing otherwise. But being black means there's a strike against you already, regardless of what you are suspected of doing, and that can mean the difference between life and death.

Bobonne - 2015-03-30
"Racist, or uninterested in racial disparities in this country. One or the other."

Wow. I'm not even going to set foot in this clusterfuck, but that's some damned impressive intellectual rigor there, given how strongly you support the drone strike program, Bort.

Bort - 2015-03-30
You've set foot all the same, so go ahead, let's hear your fascinating opinions.

simon666 - 2015-03-30
What I've taken away from this thread is:

1) We don't know factually if any racial group is being killed by police more than any other, let alone disproportionately.

2) Despite 1, a number of people hold the believe that blacks are killed by police disproportionately--maybe blacks are maybe they are not; we'll have to see if there is any data in the future. (Police probably shouldn't be killing _anyone_ so 'disproportionately' may be a bad term here. Further, being killed by police is quite something different than being stopped, harassed, ticketed, and jailed; also a problem, but something different.)

3) Implicitly, the historical injustice to our black brothers and sisters in the US motivates certain people to address the problem of police violence toward blacks more than the injustice of police violence in itself.

4) If one is critical of the current discursive method which advocates for black justice, even if one is in favor of black justice, one is politically othered and labeled, perhaps implicitly, an enemy of black justice.

The biggest problem, or contention, in the thread seems to be 4. My sense is that those critical of That Guy or RoUS are having trouble seeing outside of their own discourse. The left has a particular way of discussing certain injustices, a way that borrows terms from the academic critical theories. These ways of discussing injustices then become the _the way_ of identifying injustice; but this is a mistake. Critical theory is an interpretive practice which, at base, presumes a plurality of ways of talking about a given phenomenon, the phenomenon in this case being injustice towards blacks.

From what I've read here, both That Guy and RoUS have agreed that the phenomenon of black injustice is wrong and is a problem, but have taken issue with the discursive (rhetorical) tactics used by the left and others in this thread. It seems then their criticism of the discourse is being mistaken as a criticism or rejection of the premise that blacks face injustice in the US. But this seems to be an incorrect and non-generous reading of what That Guy and RoUS are saying.

If I'm taking their points correctly, and I think I am, it's that we can be for black justice, against police violence and overreach, and do so in a discerning way, a way that does not require a political othering to achieve this goal. In other words, positive project rather than a negative one.

SolRo - 2015-03-30
on your #1;

technically we could infer that black people are killed by police more than white people just by taking racial profiling data and making the (very likely wrong) assumption that police interaction has an equal chance of turning deadly no matter what race the victim was. Then just by how disproportionately black people are targeted by police leads to a higher chance of being killed by police.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-30
simon666 just posted the most eloquent post I've seen on this site in a long time so kudos to you, simon. You put it much better than I did.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30

1) & 2) The data we *do* have indicates that yes, black people are being killed (very) disproportionately over white people. However, that data is problematic, because police are not required to report fatalities to any federal body -- also, it's been discovered that police districts are flat-out lying about how many people they've killed. The fact that what little data the police *do* give us indicates the disproportionate murder of black people over white people (by an overwhelming degree) is indicative that if we *did* require police to report everyone they killed, we'd probably see a much, much more horrifying picture.

3) & 4) No. This is not hard: There is a time and a place to talk about police brutality toward everyone, and there is a time and a place to talk about police brutality toward *black people*. The issue here is that people are demanding that black people stop talking about police brutality toward black people, and only talk about police brutality toward *everyone*. Which is stupid.

Violence is terrible and no one should suffer it. But when we're having a conversation about a specific type of violence, it's not appropriate to burst into that conversation and demand that we be more inclusive about our discussion.

Again, this is not hard. This is basic dialogue 101. The fact that so many people don't understand it is more than a little frustrating.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
Also, can I just add that another part of what makes this so infuriating is that no matter how politely you explain this to people, no matter how calmly you attempt to make your point, no matter how much you attempt to guard your language from hyperbole -- they will *inevitably* freak the fuck out.

Because so many of us are *INCAPABLE* of parsing 'Black Lives Matter' as anything other than an attack on white people. Because black people can't even validate their existence without some white dude needing to run into the room and shout 'BUT WHITE PEOPLE MATTER TOO!'.

And the worst part? I can't even hint that this might be a little racist, because if I do, people like RoUS and That Guy will have a meltdown. So I have to find much more 'politically correct' terms, so as not to offend everyone's delicate sensibilities.

This is why I don't go to parties.

(That, and the fact that I'm a 3,300 pound water mammal.)

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-31
I would say that people are racists against hippos but the truth is, hippos kill more people than sharks! I'm just talking statistically...I'm sure you are an exception...

I'm not freaking out because of the slogan, I'm freaked out by the fact that if you don't attach yourself to the slogan the extreme left will yell at you for not trying to be a part of ending all racism, which is stupid. It's Kony 2012 all over again in that a bunch of well meaning people are attaching themselves to a label in the hopes that will somehow equate with them getting seen in a light of approval.

Now if you want me to jump on the slogan "The Constitution Matters" I'm there. Because our government has no more fucks to give.

That guy - 2015-03-31
Hippo, this was you *guarding* your language from hyperbole?

I'm not sure your last examples are fair, if they're meant to reflect the tack you think I'm taking.
But if you are talking about the kind of people who always have to quibble, then yeah, I agree.

We might have gone past the point where we're in the same conversation anymore, and I'm not pointing fingers when I say that. Shit just happens.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-31
'I'm not freaking out because of the slogan, I'm freaked out by the fact that if you don't attach yourself to the slogan the extreme left will yell at you for not trying to be a part of ending all racism, which is stupid. It's Kony 2012 all over again in that a bunch of well meaning people are attaching themselves to a label in the hopes that will somehow equate with them getting seen in a light of approval.'

You don't need to attach yourself to the slogan. No reasonable person thinks that failing to embrace this slogan makes you a racist, RoUS. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't worth your time.

The *only* thing I have been arguing is that attempting to *negate* this slogan (by responding to it with "But ALL lives matter!") is inappropriate, and -- if not racist -- is, at the very least, ignorant.

No one (here) is yelling at you for not attaching yourself to the slogan. No one cares if you attach yourself to the slogan or not. ALL THAT'S BEING ASKED OF YOU is this: Do not say that every conversation about violence against black people must also include white people.

That Guy: I don't think I was engaged in very much hyperbole; I think you engaged in more hyperbole than I did. But it doesn't really matter. If your whole problem with my argument is that you just don't like the package it was shipped in, then as far as I'm concerned, we have nothing to argue about.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-31
Also, Rodents of Unusual Size: I don't know if you're going to read this, because at this point we're pretty far down the rabbit hole, but -- based on your posts here -- there's one more thing I wanted to tell you. Something that I suspect you need to hear:

One hangup white people have is that we're afraid that others are trying to brow-beat us into conforming to their narratives with labels like 'racist'. But even if that were true, it would be irrelevant. The whole world could think you're a racist, and that still wouldn't *make* you racist.

It's not how people see you that matters -- it's what you do that counts. Being perceived as racist isn't a big deal, dude. You don't need a stamp of 'black approval', you don't need to walk on eggshells and you don't need to concern yourself with the opinions of fools and extremists. You just need to listen to people -- and try to treat them with respect, compassion, and love. If you do that, you can hold your head up high.

I say that 'all lives matter' is a disrespectful response to 'black lives matters' -- not because I want the 'approval' of black people -- not because I want more 'liberal credibility points' -- not because I'm trying to fill out my 'activist bingo' card. But because I believe it's genuinely disrespectful, particularly considering what's going on.

Because I honestly don't *care* what liberals think of me, and neither should you. I don't do the things I do out of some desire to placate a nebulous system of rigid ethics; I don't believe the things I believe out of some loyalty to a political entity's unwavering moral narrative. I act the way I act because I've listened to people -- and I'm trying to respond to them in a way that is both loving and respectful. That's the only thing you *can* do.

The most pernicious property of the anti-SJW narrative is the ongoing presumption that people only care about justice because they want 's approval; that they're doing it out of a desire to increase their self-worth. But I don't *need* to increase my self-worth: I already know I'm pretty frigging awesome. Nobody's going to take that away from me. And what I'm saying is that -- you should feel the same.

Once you stop basing your self-worth on how people you hardly know perceive you, it puts you in a place where you can stop worrying how people perceive you and start concentrating on how to treat them decently. Which is, again, why I say 'all lives matters' is not an appropriate response to 'black lives matters'. Not because I *care* what black people think of me; no, just because I find it indecent and inappropriate.

You are awesome -- no matter what anyone says. Once you realize that, the road to being *more* awesome becomes easy.

That guy - 2015-03-31
mostly the package it comes in, yeah
not entirely the package

As I said elsewhere on this page, I'm not debating nation-wide statistics on cops vs blacks, whether regarding harrasment or violence.

Surrounding many progressive issues is a lot of shibboleths and imperfect rhetoric (that builds metaphysics that aren't necessary or helpful, only seemingly so) that become valued in a way that makes them mistaken for, and incorporated with, the progressive issues themselves. Part of that is the overly-wide casting of a net when trying to detect one's enemies.

Same people who went apeshit when dubya said "you're either with us or against us".

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-31
There's a big difference between going apeshit and going 'I think that's the wrong thing to say', though. I didn't go apeshit; I explained why I thought something was inappropriate. *You* parsed that as apeshit.

And as much as the absurd rectitude of the left is a problem, so is the reverse -- people *accusing* someone of engaging in absurd rectitude when really, all that person was saying is 'I think you're wrong, here's why'.

The moment you tell us we need to stop being critical is the moment you tell us we need to just shut our brains off and tow the party line. And as much as that's worked for the right, it's not a quality I'd like to see manifested in the left.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-31
I have a huge problem, still, with people telling me what is inappropriate if someone has good intentions behind what they say.

I think it's a sign that our country is gung ho about witch hunts and witch hunts are convenient because they distract away from the real crimes being perpetrated far up the chain of command in this country.

And Hippo, you've said a lot I do agree with and a lot I don't but years ago I underwent a clusterfuck of people over at Bo News telling me I was racist because I didn't normally find Asian guys attractive. They turned that into "I hate blacks and think of them all as N words" and yes that is exactly what went down.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't a paranoid personality, because I don't really trust easily and my view of human nature is almost always exceedingly suspicious and I opt for believing that MOST people have hidden agendas, especially in the media, especially where race is concerned and events like Ferguson are manipulated from behind closed doors to try to sell us some kind of narrative. And it's not that I can't talk about black issues without bringing up white people, it's more like I am always wanting to backlash whenever the subject comes up because the media wants all white people to feel guilty and the trend has been to all shame us over white privilege. Most of my life has been extraordinarily above and beyond shitty, so I don't really feel like joining that particular party, no matter how many perks everyone seems to think I have enjoyed.

I'm not saying I'm not fucked up for that, on some level I probably am, but I'm clouded by bitterness, angst, fear, and the overwhelming urge to scream at people most of the time.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-31
RoUS: A lot of my current emotional health and sense of self-worth stems from when I finally managed to put aside my paranoia and bitterness, and just started trusting people. Particularly when it came to them telling me what they wanted, needed, and who they were.

I think you're wrong on a *tremendous* number of things. For example: As Jon Stewart would say, the media isn't slanted toward shaming white people -- the media is slanted toward *sensationalism*. Sometimes, it's more sensational to shame white people than black people. But if you pay very close attention, you'll notice the media does *both* -- and it's a *lot* more consistent about shaming black people.

But the fact that I think you're wrong doesn't mean I think you're a terrible person, or that you're a racist, or that I want to shame you. I genuinely don't. And while you're right that there's a lot of people out there who *do* want to shame you -- and some of those people are anti-racist advocates -- that's besides the point. You owe it to yourself to look past the attempts to shame you -- and look at what the people around you are saying. What they're *asking* of you. What they are, in some cases, outright *begging* of you.

Maybe you're right. Maybe anti-racism advocates are behind closed doors, designing sociological super-weapons against white people -- ways of controlling our sense of self-worth using the emotional and moral weight labels like 'racist' carry -- so they can seize control of the narrative. I sincerely doubt that, but hey, maybe it's true.

But here's the thing: It doesn't matter. Because being called a racist doesn't bother me. They have no power over me. I support 'black lives matter' not out of fear of being called a racist, but because I believe it's *the right thing to do*. And even if every anti-racism advocate was a shrieking harpie that wanted to kill every last white person on the planet, supporting 'black lives matter' would *still be the right thing to do*.

I'm sorry that you've experienced the hardships you've experienced, and I know how painful rejection, ostracization, and suffering through violence can be. Trust me: I *really* know. I sincerely hope it gets better for you.

But in the meanwhile, all that's being asked of you is to not respond to 'black lives matter' with 'no, all lives matter'. You're not even being asked to *support* 'black lives matter'; you're just being asked to *not attack it*. I don't think that's a lot to ask of anyone.

I hope everything works out for you.

That guy - 2015-03-31
oh dude, Hippo, I was not saying that you were going apeshit.

We're totally not in the same convo anymore, if we ever were.

Aelric - 2015-03-29
I do agree with one aspect: Conservatives have a unity that allows them to get things done that we liberals don't seem to have. I think these are not the best examples, not are they present very well because Bill is a dried up old turd of hate, but he is right about that. It's why the conservatives just keep coming back like Jason Voorhees, they are a single entity and thus a more effective political group.

Not saying it's right. Just saying they have that and we don't seem to.
That guy - 2015-03-29
There's plenty of evidence of that phenomenon on this page, homie.

Nominal - 2015-03-29
Not having an organized force like religion backed by unlimited corporate money puts progressives at a disadvantage, yes.

Even the civil rights movement was as successful as it was due to pre-organization existing in the form of community churches.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
The right plays this very same game ("how many flag lapels are you wearing!?"). I don't believe people should be smeared and ridiculed for their mistakes, regardless. But "black lives matter" is a very relevant rallying cry -- and responding to it with "no, ALL lives matter" is a case study in the art of the derail.
The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
Meant as a response to Void 71.

That guy - 2015-03-29
It could very well be a derail.
It could be a number of other things.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-29
I think that is jumping to the conclusion that you need to educate this woman, and that her making a statement which anyone can agree with (all lives matter) means she is out of touch with what is happening and assumes that she just doesn't get it. I think she does. I think she's well meaning. I think that if you look for the absolute worst in people all the time you are going to unfailingly find it.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
I wasn't speaking to this particular woman's situation; only you (RoUS). I don't know if what the woman said was intended as -- or constitutes a -- derail. I agree there are contexts where 'all lives matter' isn't a derail.

However, that context isn't when it's a response to 'black lives matter'.

Nominal - 2015-03-29
"Color blind cops" would have been a better hastag rally cry.

Nominal - 2015-03-29
To further expand, the hashtag slacktivists LOVE jumping on that issue and making it divisive because they romanticize and pine for the black civil rights movement of the 60s the way conservative chicken hawks do about World War II. Both groups are in it just to indulge in self righteous sabre rattling, and said conflicts were the last instance of a black & white struggle where their side was totally in the right. How many times have you run into conservatives justifying every war by invoking WWII?

The worst thing though is that shaming fetishists totally miss the part where Martin Luther King called for love and harmony, opting for the Malcolm X approach instead.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-29
Nominal, why do you care about what the 'slacktivists' are doing? When I said it's a relevant rallying cry, I meant that it's *literally* being cried out at rallies -- at places like Ferguson. By *activists*.

I don't know if 'slacktivists' are calling for black people to arm and protect themselves against the police (as Malcolm X would likely have suggested); I know that activists have taken a very strong non-violent approach, however (to the point of sometimes-absurdity).

I also don't know what 'slacktivist' is, but I'm going to wager a guess -- is it something that really doesn't matter but people like to complain about anyway?

(Y'know, like the opinions of celebrities?)

Xenocide - 2015-03-30
"Slacktivist" is a term used by olds to complain about people engaging in activism in any manner that uses technology invented after The Facts of Life went off the air. If your activism involves the internet, smartphones, or youtube videos of any kind, then it's not "real" activism and thus does not count.

Never mind that the only reason anyone outside of Missouri even HEARD of Ferguson is because some locals spread the news of the shooting all over social media until it became too big for the mainstream media to ignore (at which point they began reporting on it two weeks after the fact.)

Or that a ton of those people were on the streets getting tear gassed and arrested night after night, just so they could record video of the protests on their phones to upload, as an alternative to the edited-for-grandmas-delicate-sensibilities versions you saw on the cable networks. Nope, that's STILL not real activism. If these kids were serious, they'd use the tested activist strategies of the 60's. The drum circles! The weed! The complete lack of results!

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
Oh, nevermind; I beg pardon. I thought it was some sort of pejorative for people who just have opinions on the internet (like me).

In that case, go-slacktivists-go! Internet powers activate!

That guy - 2015-03-30
Good job xeno.

There's never anything farcical about slacktivism, right? I can't think of ONE way in which it's ever bullshit.

ashtar. - 2015-03-30
I agree with Xenocide that the term is overused in exactly that way.
I'm getting a master's in environmental philosophy right now. Pretty much everyone I know is involved in environmentalism and I spend all my time thinking about it. There areľnot a majority, butľa lot of environmental "activists" who think that "raising awareness" and trending hashtags is the solution to every problem and somehow a substitute for actually showing up to things or physically meeting with farmers who are thinking of selling the mineral rights to their land to a fracking company because they can't make a living and their town is slowly dying and having some kind of difficult, meaningful back-and-forth conversation and working on a real solution. Fuck those people. Kony 2012.

ashtar. - 2015-03-30
It's weird, for a bunch of people that complain about consumerism, they seem to think that advertising is the solution to all problems.

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
Yeah, okay, but in what way are those people relevant or important -- to, well, anything?

I mean, people who spend time doing fruitless things while telling themselves that they're making a difference don't strike me as deserving of much attention.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-30
Who the hell are you to tell me that "all lives matter" shouldn't be something that someone says in response to "black lives matter"? Maybe I just fucking care about everyone, not just blacks. Maybe I honestly don't want ANYONE to get hurt EVER because I LITERALLY DESPISE ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE.

So no, I actually will jump on "all lives matter" and I'll use that phrase in response to anyone, ever.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-30
If that is how you choose to interpret that phrase, you are condemning people based ENTIRELY on paranoia and assuming they are racist when that is a perfectly peace loving and non violent thing to say.

Bort - 2015-03-30
"If that is how you choose to interpret that phrase, you are condemning people based ENTIRELY on paranoia and assuming they are racist when that is a perfectly peace loving and non violent thing to say."

Racist, or uninterested in racial disparities in this country. One or the other.

And given the context, not, it is not at all peace-loving or non-violent. You're dismissing the real and legitimate concerns of black folks who feel they can't trust the police. It's possible you genuinely don't intend to do so, but that's the impact you're having.

Bort - 2015-03-30
"... NO, it is not ..."

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
'If that is how you choose to interpret that phrase, you are condemning people based ENTIRELY on paranoia and assuming they are racist when that is a perfectly peace loving and non violent thing to say.'

I'm not condemning anyone; I'm telling you why saying something in a certain context is inappropriate -- and you aren't addressing any of the points I've raised, beyond making an appeal to emotion.

I'm sorry you were assaulted. I'm sorry your friend was assaulted. Those sound like terrible situations to have gone through. None of that, however, makes you any less wrong.

SolRo - 2015-03-30
You know, 'black lives matter' could just be a criticism of the media.

How many weeks do the major news channels agonize over a dead blonde white girl, and then give no shits about any other missing people of off-white color?

Spaceman Africa - 2015-03-30
ROUS seems like one of the people who bemoans the lack of White History Month

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-30
Spaceman Africa, no I have never had that sentiment. Do you see how leaping to conclusions about what you think someone MUST believe if they say something you even THINK MIGHT BE racist is illogical?

The Great Hippo - 2015-03-30
The fear you have at the prospect of being labeled 'racist' is downright palpable. Here's the thing, though: Nobody cares whether or not you're racist. Except for you.

The Black History month thing is actually another great example. "Black history is important! Let's have a black history month!" -- "Wait, but *all* history is important, why are you singling out just *black* history?!"


"Black lives are important! Let's stop killing black people!" -- "Wait, but *all* lives are important, why are you singling out just *black* lives?!"

Also, I think it's equal parts hilarious and sad how much people need to be coddled during these discussions. Unless black people insert a 'By the way, ALL LIVES ARE IMPORTANT and WE DON'T THINK ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST' after every statement they make, it's pretty much impossible to talk about violence targeting black people without somehow pissing off white people.

Actually, I bet that wouldn't work either.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2015-03-31
Just to clear up, I'm not telling anyone NOT to say "black lives matter" but I think the concept is becoming a powerful rally cry and there are a lot of emotions that go with that, and reactions. The thing about the Internet is that the word racist gets thrown around so much, and in real life less frequently, but still thrown around, that people have grown really dismissive with it. It's not that I think everyone will think I'm racist, I'm pretty sure a certain percentage always will if I dissent on popular instantaneous "try this meme and get out of being seen as a racist" cards.

Myrmidon - 2015-03-30
I remain amused by how many self-professed "liberals" are functionally indistinguishable from Brietbart.com commenters on certain issues.
Old_Zircon - 2015-03-30
"Liberalism" has a pretty poor history of reactionary behavior in the social arena, this kind of stuff seems like an inevitable outcome of it to me. I'm far more willing to hitch my cart to progressives than liberals, myself, although I don't think reducing your experience of and opinions about the world to ANY ideological framework is the best idea (although ideology is certainly a useful tool for short term mobilization of large numbers of people in support of a common cause, for better or worse).

At any rate, I think any really honest discussion of the major social problems of the present has to eventually become a critique of Capitalism and that's not easy to do on any meaningful scale, especially since nobody seems to have any viable alternatives that aren't even worse.

Pillager - 2015-03-31
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Pro: I've voted Green/Democrat since '88. I support a woman's right to an abortion whenever she wants, no questions asked. Women should be payed the same as men. Gays should marry just like everyone else. Dennis Kucinich is my ideal POTUS. I totally & vehemently anti war.

Con: I am a registered gun owner & I think gun control laws are as faulty as anti marijuana laws. Both work as well as prohibition back the 20's.

We agree on most things. Why am I catching shit for loathing hipsters with gender studies degrees who are fucking around with my hobbies?

Bort - 2015-03-30
I suspect that Maher's real beef here is that people have been calling him a bigot when it comes to Islam.

Which he could fix by not being a bigot when it comes to Islam.

A great many people are capable of observing that the Muslim world has some pretty large problems, including widespread misogyny and intolerance, repressive theocratic governments, and a violent fundamentalist fringe; but those problems are not inseparable from Islam, nor does being a Muslim prevent a person from having the social perspectives we consider sane, just, and enlightened. Not a difficult thing to say, yet Maher won't say it. If he has said anything even slightly resembling that of late, I bet it came only after a barrage of bad press.
NewHeavenSockman - 2015-03-30
people shouldn't censor bill maher because he serves a very important purpose: attracting the special kind of shithead who makes "bush dum!!!!! XD" jokes but gets remarkably testy at anything challenging their own preconceptions
Old_Zircon - 2015-03-30
I wish he'd do it with more panache.

NancyDrewFan123 - 2015-03-30
Well, hasn't this been a lovely little litmus test for POETV.
TeenerTot - 2015-03-30
Is anyone else getting a little hint of hypocrisy from him here? Like, it's OK for D&G to have freeze peach, but not the boycotters?
That guy - 2015-03-31
Well, Maher is a shit.
I thought that was common knowledge.
When he does make a point, it's always bracketed by assholishness.
He reminds me of me, that way.

Simillion - 2015-03-30
This bit reminded me of South park's "Go God Go" back in 2006, where Cartman "cryogenically" freezes himself to a point in the future where people are arguing (and warring) over what to call their atheist society.
Bort - 2015-03-30
I hated that episode. As if Richard Dawkins would choose Mr. Garrison over Lalla Ward ... AS IF.

Change - 2015-03-30
"liberals shouldn't fight each other except for those guys, fuck those guys"

people crying about sjws are funny as fuck
EvilHomer - 2015-03-30

Change - 2015-04-01

infinite zest - 2015-03-30
Holy shit. 100 comments. This was probably brought up before. D&G didn't say that synthetic birth was wrong, they said that THEY thought it was wrong (and unnatural, which, let's face it, is true). There's a big distinction there. I'm a vegan so I think eating meat is gross. But just because you eat it you're not gross. Like, what you eat doesn't make me shit and vice versa. Soy hot dogs are fucking unnatural. And I'll admit to having family members (Democrats) who think that homosexual marriage shouldn't be legal, and as many friends who vote Republican who are openly gay. Maher's right in that we need to chill the fuck out, but I can say that I don't like his suit and that's my opinion.
EvilHomer - 2015-03-30
I'm not watching this video and I'm not interested in fagdancing on Bill Maher's account, but it's nice to hear that he's on the side of chilling the fuck out.

simon666 - 2015-03-30
Yeah. I'm with you on the suit, IZ. A few years ago, after a summer break (2009 or 2010 maybe), Bill was wearing some really nice, slim fit dark suits with thin ties: black, very dark gray, dark navy blue. He was looking good. Then that season passed and now he's back to dressing from the closeout rack at Men's Warehouse.

EvilHomer - 2015-03-30
"Effects of Vyvanse on Tulpae

Hi guys!

First off, sorry if this is in the wrong section. I was not sure where to put this. So, recently I started taking a new medication for my ADD. I have not taken medicine for this in a very long time, like twelve years or something like that. Anyway, first of all, a little back story. A little while ago, like six months ago, I found out about and read all about the concept of a tulpa, then I began to make one. However, due to the fact that I was so busy, I decided that I did not have enough time to pursue tulpa creation at the time. Then come about two months ago, my schedule cleared up a lot more, but I was out of the groove and unfortunately did not get back into it. However, I did a very, very small amount of passive narration. Then, here is the interesting part of the story, then I started taking this ADD med called Vyvanse. My concentration took off, but it only took a couple of days to realize that something else was happening as well. I was hearing Alex. I was hearing him stronger than I ever had up to that point. And the interesting thing was that he spoke independent of me. A little more back story for all of you. I kind of have a problem with spending money. Not necessarily on "things", but just by nickel and diming all of my money away. You know, a Jamba Juice here, Taco Bell there. The moment when I realized that Vyvanse had brought Alex more independence and volume in my mind was when I was about to buy something that I did not need in the store, and a voice popped up in my head and just said something along the lines of, "Why are you buying that? You don't need it." Ever since that first time, for the past couple of weeks, I cannot tell you how many times he has helped me make better choices. We have also had some fun conversations. So, what do you guys think? Have any of you experienced this kind of improvement with an ADD med? Just curious, and I thought you might want to hear about this.

simon666 - 2015-03-30

EvilHomer - 2015-03-30
From the Tulpa Research Forum.


How psychiatric meds affect tulpae is a popular topic for discussion.

Oscar Wildcat - 2015-03-30
POETV Liberal vs POETV Liberal : FIGHT!
Aelric - 2015-03-30
I'm waiting for the time warp that allows old Cena_Mark to fight current Cena_Mark

That guy - 2015-03-31
The fact that a huge site fight was caused by a video with this title is fairly delicious. Even if I was part of it, I can see that.

Oscar Wildcat - 2015-03-31
All participants are to be congratulated for pushing this posting way beyond earth orbit directly into the heart of the sun.

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