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Desc:An honest caller gets some honest answers.
Category:Religious, Classic TV Clips
Tags:atheist, rape, Morality, atheist experience, honest
Submitted:kamlem
Date:12/29/10
Views:1902
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Comment count is 17
Oscar Wildcat
At a little past the five minute mark you can hear the caller's head explode.
simon666
I watched for a minute then skipped to minute five. Head explosion indeed.

Innocent Bystander
It kinda sucks that they're mostly preaching to the choir.
Bort
Yeah, I like these guys and I enjoy their YouTube clips, but this is a topic where they could do a better job of demonstrating common ground, by showing that even hardcore Bible believers pick and choose between "sensible" Biblical laws and "outdated / crazy" laws. How do believers differentiate? By their own sense of fairness / justice / mercy ... which is coincidentally how atheists decide right from wrong.

Innocent Bystander
If you have to decide which laws make sense and what don't in your belief system, what is the point of having a predefined set of them at all? I think that is the main difference and comes across pretty well.

I also find it interesting that very often the criteria by which the decisions concerning the practicality/sensibility/point of religious rules are made are very often the result of secular, scientific reasoning which would never have come to pass if we lived in a 100% religious world.

Bort
Maybe it's more a matter of emphasis then. Pretty often, when asked "how do you decide what you should and should not do", the guy answers "I use reason"; it would be helpful if he added "... and so do you, let me show you". Focusing on "I use reason" emphasizes and exaggerates differences that aren't there so much, and puts up a roadblock.

And yes, it really does call into question what good the rule book is. Which would be a great point to make, but first you've got to show that a person's sense of right and wrong doesn't originate from the rule book.

StanleyPain
It's like someone talked this guy into calling, just as a Christmas gift to this show.
MacGyver Style Bomb
I think he broke that poor boy's mind.
Buggerman
I like the fact that these guys were hardcore practicing Christians that have such a solid understanding of the Bible. It is refreshing from the other Nietzsche fanboy "ranters" on youtube.
Night Train to Mundo Fine
This is great up until around 5:00, when the Dr. Ray starts criticizing the idea of salvation. The concept that even the worst of us can be "saved" and should be forgiven is one of the only unabashedly good things about traditional Christianity. Salvation was meant to be a change in sinner's overall personality rather than mere lip-service to religion--that is, the hypothetical rapist would renounce and express remorse for his crimes and become a better person as a result of conversion. The 'loophole' approach is considered false and frankly ineffective--if the rapist were not actually saved but merely claimed salvation, he'd still be going to hell within the caller's theological system. Ray rightfully eviscerates the caller on the need for a hell in the first place, but with the wrong point. "Mercy is a suspension of justice." What the fuck?
Bort
The best justice incorporates mercy anyway as a matter of course. Reducing a penalty because it is unduly harsh or counterproductive could be called "mercy", or it could also be called "not compounding the original injustice with a sentencing injustice".

IrishWhiskey
Reducing a penalty for being "unduly harsh" or a "sentencing injustice" isn't mercy, its simply restoring justice. Reducing a "duly harsh" sentence that was justly applied for reasons of compassion would be mercy. Mercy can lead to a more fair/just/societally optimal outcome, without being 'justice'. Of course this depends on specific definitions of justice and mercy that aren't universally agreed upon, but are what the caller was talking about there (suffering proportional to crimes). The point on show's side is not that salvation is bad, but rather that the Christian definition of salvation contradicts justice.

More important is the idea that salvation in the Christian sense isn't about restoration or retribution (although some saints did dedicate their live to making amends or making themselves suffer) but simply loving and obeying God. I was commonly told in Catholic school stories of horrible men who engaged in brutality and accepted God right before their deaths to find the reward of eternal paradise in heaven. While their innocent victims who did not accept God would suffer eternally. Christianity (or most denominations) basically say that all other crimes are insignificant compared to accepting complete control by God.

As the show points out, its a philosophy whereby good people suffer unimaginable torment for being born in the wrong place while horrible people, even if its good that they reform, find no punishment in this life or the next. You could say that knowledge of their own misdeeds will haunt them, but that's not really how heaven is described.

Riskbreaker
To put it simple: the angular stone of this "system" is based on how much you appeal to the ego of a narcicistic god. As long as you worship him, even one nanosecond before dying, all your bill is clean, and you can keep harrasing costumers in heaven.

StanleyPain
I must disagree. salvation is a loathsome concept, at least in terms of religion. It means that a magical wizard priest man can simply wave his hand and declare ANYONE who puts forth whatever effort the religion requires as "saved" regardless of their crime or offense to mankind. The reason it gives people hope and is interpreted as such a great facet of religion is because people know it's a lazy, easy way out of actually doing anything to redeem themselves in any actual way that's effective, so it's much more attractive. Also, conceding that religion's great saving grace is salvation, means that you also HAVE to concede then that religion is qualified to make judgments in the opposite direction, and that condemning people to hell or to death or whatever is totally A-OK because they know what they're talking about.

pastorofmuppets
Whiskey, Catholics don't do sola fide; they're saved through the church and the sacraments. Mortal sins prevent salvation, but they can be forgiven if someone is truly penitent, which is closer to what Night Train was saying. It sounds to me like Darrel is conveniently assuming that justice requires retribution, which is unfortunate.

(but he still kicked that guy's ass)

pastorofmuppets
He's right that "there are no consequences" comes closer to describing Christian morality than a secular one. But he doesn't undertand that retribution isn't always necessary for justice (well, Kant might disagree I guess). There is always a back and forth between law and equity (which is interesting... you'd figure God could make a system of laws so perfect that he wouldn't have to forgive anyone... whatever).

What it comes down to is what he says at 8:20: "how is that relevant to the truth of your religion?"
Cherry Pop Culture
This was refreshing. And was recorded on my birthday :D
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