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Desc:the 'controversial' scene everyone is apparently freaking out about
Category:Classic TV Clips, Crime
Tags:rape, Game of Thrones, sansa, george rr martin, wedding night
Submitted:lotsmoreorcs
Date:05/25/15
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Comment count is 82
That guy
I recommend the IMDb GoT boards, for this and other stuff.

They are a doozy.
Old_Zircon
On the rare occasion I venture int, IMDB boards and comments seem like an untapped well of horribleness.

That guy
It depends somewhat on the show, but yeah...
It's like the PG-13 armpit of the internet.

On the GoT boards, one of the cringey treats is the above debate, with MRAs or trolls claiming it's not rape b/c (forced) marriage.
Another is sensitive bitches who luuv GoT, but are disgusted with even the gentlest mention of 'nice boobs' on the boards. It's like reddit vs tumblr, at a youtube level of intelligence.

There was a huge red-state style reaction to Birdman.
Apparently like 10,000 people think it's 1/10 worst liberal shit ever made and they all came to the boards and started their own thread about it. Also, imagine the cockamamie fan theories.

Over in the 'shop talk' area for filmmakers and 'filmmakers', there are flame wars, doxing and stalking. People crawl up each other's ass over the dumbest disagreements.
For example, a newbie director will ask some vague question like "how important is sound?" and it'll end with semi-pro filmmakers doxing each other. Swear to God

Old_Zircon
I recommend checking out the comments for M.A.S.H. (the movie, not the show) if you want to see the dumbest elements of both sides of the current Internet gender wars completely fail to understand both the movie itself and the larger historic context of the movie.

That guy
OZ, I can't. I just can't. I love that movie.

John Holmes Motherfucker
Once, in the IMDB boards, I had an argument about Michael Moore's sicko that went on for days. For me, the Bush years were pretty much one long flame war.

EvilHomer
Why am I not surprised that you were a Bush supporter, John? You've probably been Raging in favor of the Machine since before I was born.

EvilHomer
Incidentally, who is your favorite GoT character, Mr Holmes? I can't tell if you're more of a Jorah Mormont, or a Walder Frey.

It's Littlefinger, isn't it.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>Why am I not surprised that you were a Bush supporter, John?

I don't know, it sure surprises the hell out of ME! Whatever gave you THAT idea? I have voted a straight Democratic ticket all the way back to Jimmy Carter.

>>Incidentally, who is your favorite GoT character, Mr Holmes?

Bilbo Baggins.

EvilHomer
So in your opinion, what was wrong with Bush? You have a healthy disregard for civil liberties and a marked deference towards Big Brother, so I find it hard to imagine that you found any sort of principled grounds for disliking Bush. If you truly weren't a Bush supporter, then why was that? Because he had the wrong gang affiliation? Or because his generous attitude towards the police state wasn't going far enough?

Bilbo Baggins was in Lord of the Rings, specifically The Hobbit, although he makes brief appearances in the main trilogy. Game of Thrones is different. I really do think those three characters would be good for you: Jorah is a middle-aged knight who wants nothing more than to faithfully serve a woman less than half his age, and perhaps in the end, even win her heart. Walder is a crotchety old fart who lives in a filthy hovel and also likes underage girls. And Littlefinger, he is an aging conniver who secretly loves a teenage girl, and is willing to go through her foster-mom to get at her. Again, I think Littlefinger is the best fit, because Boxxy and Boxxy mom, but any of those three could work.

You might also like Craster, a crotchety old fart who lives in a filthy hovel AND his hovel is filled with half-starved animals, but Craster's got an incest harem and I don't think you're into that.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>You have a healthy disregard for civil liberties and a marked deference towards Big Brother,

https://youtu.be/hh3YzzHw9P4

Lurchi
my rule: never watch more than two seasons of a TV show
That guy
Counterpoint:

Louie seasons 2, 3 and 5
Childrens Hospital all the way through
That guy
damnit, meant as reply to Lurchi

edit button is where?

infinite zest
Childrens Hospital stopped being funny for me when they added the laugh track. Like, I get it, sorta.. it's "meta" and whatever.. but I dunno. I think it was just for one episode but it totally ruined the tone. It's almost like it raped me but then was nice to me the next day.

Potrod
It's a dumb rule unless he's specifically excluding comedies, many of which don't even hit their stride until season 3.

Simpsons 3-8/9
Seinfeld 3-9
MST3k 2-9
It's Always Sunny 3-current

lotsmoreorcs
The last couple seasons of Seinfeld were pretty atrocious. LD dipped at the end of season 7 and there was a significant resulting dip in quality. The best and foremost example is the merciless treatment of Elaine by the writers, she was reduced to something Akin to Meg from family guy. Examples that spring to mind include her eating food out of a garbage can and letting a creepy stranger grope and kiss her underneath the bleachers of the Puerto Rican Day Parade

infinite zest
Trailer Park Boys too. Even though it lost the "reality" thing and went a bit overboard, all seven seasons are solid. Haven't seen the 8th tho. And Californication.

Xenocide
Star Trek TNG, Futurama, Venture Bros, Parks and Recreation, Adventure Time...actually pretty much every good long-running TV show hits its peak in its third or fourth season.

Rodents of Unusual Size
Boardwalk Empire was the one show I'd recommend that gets better with every season. Just watched the last episode, which blows the shit out of Mad Men.

That guy
IZ, I don't know what to tell you about 1-2 episodes of CH having a laugh track for schtick purposes and that ruining it for you.
You lose.

infinite zest
If it was the first time it was done in a loose parody of "dramedy" I'd say ok, but it didn't even work when Chris Elliott did it with Action Family 30 years ago.

Kid Fenris
What's wrong with Season 10 of MST3K, potrod?

infinite zest
Also Silicon Valley. I can see it getting a little old after this season's done though. In the real tech world, a technology you've been sitting on for that long would be long replaced by some completely different algorithm and people wouldn't be trying to steal it. But hey. I figure it's mostly comedy writers and a few techies who make sure that it doesn't get Big Bang Theory stupid, so I can't complain. I wouldn't want to watch a show that was just written by those techie people. Or would I..

infinite zest
Oh yeah and Breaking Bad, most of the x files..

Potrod
Kid Fenris, nothing really, I just forgot how many seasons there were. I do think seasons 2-6 are its peak (I'm one of those weirdos that loves the Joel era sketches) and much prefer Trace Beaulieau over Bill Corbett. Still good, though.

yogarfield
this show is so fucking stupid and boring
Gmork
you're either trolling or have dogshit where your brain should be

yogarfield
this show is so fucking stupid and boring

That guy
Honestly yogarfield, even though I really like the show, that's a 100% fair opinion.

The show is a very, very well-made plotboiler fantasy with titties.

'Magnum Opus' and 'extremely well made funsies show' are not the same thing. The ultra-fans think it's genius, and that is terrifying to me. They're most of the way to being Whedon ultras at this point.

That guy
also, see this whole page

infinite zest
I like how I'm reminded of Game of Thrones every time someone on facebook goes "OMG GoT SO DISTURBING/SHOCKING BLAH BLAH BLAH" so I just look up the scene and I'm like "huh?" Like, I hope I'm not so desensitized to the point where I'm like "that's not rape" but movie-rape's fucking Jodie Foster on a pinball machine or half of Pedro Almodovar's Matador and not this.
Reality_Unknown
If its a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."

takewithfood
The problem with being willing to kill off even some of your best characters is that eventually you kill off some of your best characters. And then you're left with this.
EvilHomer
They haven't killed off any of the best characters. Well, Khal Drogo, but he's the only one.

The best characters, in the show and in the book, are Arya, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Jamie, Khal Drogo, and Podrick, in that order. It looks like the show is pussing out on killing Tyrion, and twenty bucks says Jon Snow is coming back as a zombie, so what's the big deal?

Sure, they killed Boromir, and as someone who's read the books, I know that they're going to kill off both Loras and Daenerys within a couple episodes time. But come on, don't you think you're being a bit melodramatic...?

Xenocide
Honestly, you can pretty much tell who's going to die on this show by how boring they are. The only interesting character who has died in 5 seasons is Joffery (yeah, everyone hated him, but you can't call him boring.)

takewithfood
I think you might have stronger opinions about this show than I do.

ashtar.
I just binge watched the first four seasons. I was glad of every death. I skipped all the Robb Stark parts because he was boring.

infinite zest
I read game of thrones a long time ago.. I think I was still in high school actually but I stopped at the first book. I kind of catch it if it's on. It's kind of sad because the sets are more beautiful than almost anything I've seen on TV but goddamn it's so boring. Like even more boring than assassins creed black flag :)

Xenocide
Robb's scenes are more fun after you've seen him get killed, because you get to see the exact series of disastrously stupid political blunders that led to his fate.

He may as well have handed those guys the knife they used to stab him with, instructed them in how to use it, and given them a "Five dollars off at Chuck E. Cheese When You Murder Robb Stark" coupon.

infinite zest
I feel like if I had started watching from the beginning, I would've felt a commitment of an hour of my week (or bittorrent binge) would be OK, but since I had read one of the books, and honestly thought it was pretty bad, I didn't see it catching on, so what's the point? It's only worked a few times, like The Stand, the other Steven King miniseries about the storm.. but Under The Dome was (or maybe still is) shit and that's actually one of my favorite King novels. And if Dark Tower ever gets its shit together, hell yeah I'll watch it from the start. But Dark Tower (and King in general) has this huge cult following. Game of Thrones was pretty much unknown until after the series started, at least as far as I could tell. It's like someone at HBO was bored like me and sort of randomly picked something up at the public library.

Xenocide
Only an idiot would think this isn't rape, but at the same time, only an idiot would think this storyline could possibly have gone any other way. At this point the show's alternate title could be "Horrible Things Happen to Sansa Stark." It's amazing people are surprised.
Doomstein
If you made a mashup of all the horrible shit that happens to Sansa Stark, you'd have one depressing five hour long movie.

I think what pisses a lot of people off is that the previous episodes alluded to her becoming a "player" in the game of thrones, rather than a pawn. Dark Sansa, all cunning, strong, and brimming with a newly acquired self-confidence.

... and then she gets brutally raped and humiliated.

*sad trombone sound*

Quad9Damage
I got ten pages into A Feast For Crows before I stopped reading and near the end of the second season before I stopped watching.

Now I'm trying to imagine an HBO adaptation of Terry Goodkind's books, written and directed by Terry Goodkind.
oddeye
Ramsey is legit my second favourite character so I'm super glad he is finally getting more screen time
EvilHomer
He was cool in the books; the Reek reveal was easily one of my favorite parts in the entire thing. I also really like the actor who portrays him in the show, as I'm a Misfits mark and Invisible Creep was my favorite character in that show, too.

I'm pretty sure Ramsay is into breath-play and strangulation, so you and him would probably hit it off.

oddeye
we are too alike, it would never work.

Gmork
There are scenes of this man torturing people in horrible ways. This is him when he's being nice.
Gmork
Rape exists. Depicting rape in a story deserves no more condemnation than showing death in a story. It moves the plot along, it builds sympathy for the character, it makes you want Ramsay to die even more horribly.

Who the fuck is dumb enough to look at something distasteful and assume that because it existed in a show, the creators of the show condone it and encourage it?

By that same logic Hogan's Heroes was pro-nazi because it depicted the existence of nazis.

EvilHomer
Yeah, that is a good point, Gmork; by Ramsay standards, he's acting a fucking prince. Even his actual girlfriend gets abused harder than this.

infinite zest
Yeah wait a sec.. are people complaining about the rape itself? Like somebody actually got raped on the set? Unlike in real life, usually people who do shit like that get eaten by dragons or thrown out of spaceships, and not short prison sentences and a sex offender registry..

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>Rape exists. Depicting rape in a story deserves no more condemnation than showing death in a story. It moves the plot along, it builds sympathy for the character, it makes you want Ramsay to die even more horribly.

>>Who the fuck is dumb enough to look at something distasteful and assume that because it existed in a show, the creators of the show condone it and encourage it?

Practically no one believes that showing rape automatically makes you pro rape, but because death and rape exist, the way death and rape are portrayed in pop culture is a matter worthy of examination and criticism. I don't watch the show, and I didn't even watch the clip so these are very general comments.

In movies and TV, things happen because they advance the story , not because they have any relation to real life, and so we all have a huge collection of experiences that have nothing to do with real life.

The most fucked up thing about this example from Game of Thrones may be that you're encouraged to "want Ramsay to die even more horribly." In fiction, death can provide resolution. Violence really does solve problems. Do people carry the lessons learned from this false experience into real life? For example, by supporting capital punishment?

EvilHomer
>> JHMF Wrote: Do people carry the lessons learned from this false experience into real life? For example, by supporting capital punishment?

>> JHMF Wrote: I'm perfectly fine with the death penalty. {1}


There are two further issues with your statement, in addition to the one raised by your flip-flopping on the issue. First, it is not "a false experience" at all - if violence were literally incapable of solving problems, then there would be no need for the state (which exists solely as a means of channeling violence in an ostensibly beneficial way). Second, as I have shown in previous videos, one cannot overturn capital punishment merely by 'opposing' capital punishment {2}. Indeed, due to the complex nature of the criminal justice system, such a narrow strategy is ultimately counterproductive, to the point where unsophisticated, jingoistic opponents of capital punishment may be their own worst enemies.


If you were living in Game of Thrones, Mr Holmes, how would YOU handle Ramsay?



{1} http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=144996
{2} http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=144849

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>If you were living in Game of Thrones, Mr Holmes, how would YOU handle Ramsay?

I don't know who that is, but the point is that NO ONE actually lives in Game of thrones.

EvilHomer
>> the point is that NO ONE actually lives in Game of thrones.

You just now figured that out?! Of COURSE no-one actually lives in game of Thrones! That's a completely nonsensical point: fiction acts as allegory, an analogue for the real world, even though what occurs in it is largely imaginary.

Given the context in which your statement occurs, the *only reason* you might have for bringing up this point, is if you are trying to argue that fiction has nothing to teach us. *But this runs counter to the Socratic question you just raised*, to whit: "Do people carry the lessons learned from this false experience into real life?"

If we accept the view that fiction has nothing to teach us, then the answer to your question is obviously "no". Furthermore, it means that the answer to your thesis statement ("the most fucked up thing about this may be that you're encouraged to want Ramsay to die") is a resounding, "Jesus, John, of course it isn't, what is wrong with you?"

Was that your goal all along? To set up a ridiculous thesis, then completely undermine it?

EvilHomer
>>I don't know who that is

Ramsay is the controversial individual who just "maritally-raped" Sansa Stark. He is also the man responsible for those dick torture scenes that prompted you to stop watching.

John Holmes Motherfucker
Given the context in which your statement occurs, the *only reason* you might have for bringing up this point, is if you are trying to argue that fiction has nothing to teach us.

No, I don't think that follows. My hypothesis is that fiction teaches us things that are false, but that doesn't mean that fiction doesn't also teach us things that are true.

>>Furthermore, it means that the answer to your thesis statement ("the most fucked up thing about this may be that you're encouraged to want Ramsay to die") is a resounding, "Jesus, John, of course it isn't, what is wrong with you?"

I don't know, why don't you tell me what's wrong with me? That way, instead of using histrionics to make your point, you'd making an actual argument, which is much better.

One of the worst things fiction does is encourage the audience to cheer for someone's death. Okay, Ramsey probably deserves it, but how many people really deserve to die? Cheap horror movies will set up the audience to enjoy the death of someone who is merely arrogant or rude.

https://youtu.be/v2qH7LmZN6g

EvilHomer
>> My hypothesis is that fiction teaches us things that are false, but that doesn't mean that fiction doesn't also teach us things that are true.

So you DO think that fiction has something to teach us. Thereby rendering pointless your subsequent statement, "the point is that NO ONE actually lives in Game of thrones".

>> I don't know, why don't you tell me what's wrong with me?

It's a rhetorical question Mr Holmes, and at any rate, it is not the answer *I* would give to your thesis, because I myself *do* believe that fiction has something to teach us, regardless of whether or not anyone actually lives in Game of Thrones. - which is why I asked you to justify your anti-killing-Ramsay sentiments in the first place! You were trying to weasel your way out of taking responsibility for your statements, and in doing so, contradicted yourself. That's not histrionics, it's logic.

So, getting back to the original question: If you were living in Game of Thrones, how would YOU handle Ramsay? If, in your opinion, killing him is not OK, then what is?

Rodents of Unusual Size
To be fair, this isn't that far from the books because she gets raped by Joffrey in book 2...a lot. And beaten frequently until she gets a major case of PTSD. They just changed it around some.

Since George refuses to write anything, I hope they come up with satisfactory ways for characters like Ramsay to die in the next season.
il fiore bel
When does she get raped by Joffrey? He threatens it, but I'm pretty sure she's still a virgin at the time of her marriage.

And I'm counting on Ramsay to die by the end of season 7. (Okay, maybe early season 8, and that's stretching it.) No one's reign of terror lasts forever in this world.

EvilHomer
IIRC, il fiore bel is correct; she gets stripped naked by Joffrey, and almost gets raped by some angry peasants (not to mention all the emotional abuse that just sort of got brushed over in the show), but I don't believe J-dawg ever raped her.

Other people got raped, just not her.

EvilHomer
You may be thinking of her friend, Lollys, who really did get raped by those peasants, and wound up suffering from a major case of the PTSDs; a state of affairs which many characters found to be quite funny.

Rodents of Unusual Size
It might have been her friend, that's the thing about this series is there are way too many fucking people to keep track of.

Hooker
Every time a new book comes out, I spend about half the time trying to remember who any of the characters are, what happened to them, and why I should give a shit. It's only around page 500 or so that I remember that I never cared.

Hooker
Didn't the dragon lady sit on a chair for two whole books while her dragons were tied up in the back yard?

EvilHomer
Hooker - no, you are misremembering. The dragons were tied up *in her basement.*

I actually really liked the Daenerys parts, because of their cynical yet subtle critique of geopolitics, exploring the often thorny vagaries of revolution, empire, and well-intentioned populism, and because of the commentary on family, destiny, and the importance of focus when trying to attain one's goals. I also liked the part where Daenerys pooped herself.

But, yeah, the actual parts about DAENERYS and THE DRAGONS were pretty shitty (no pun intended; in fact, the shitty dragon part - when she got diarrhea after being abducted by Drogon - was ironically the least-shitty dragon part so far)

EvilHomer
I hope she doesn't win. She's a fan favorite, at least on the show, and if she got off her now-pooping butt and started actually going to Westeros instead of doing more nothing, then I think that militarily she's got a really good shot of winning. Plot-wise, however, I am pretty sure that Jon Snow, being the true-born son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen (and thus rightful heir to the Iron Throne), not to mention the Azor Ahai, will wind up being the 'King', if only to rally the realms of men against Bran and/or the zombies which, 5+ books into the series, have yet arrive.

Lame. If *I* were allowed to write the ending, I'd have Arya wind up becoming Queen, with Tyrion as her prince-consort, and maybe Asha Greyjoy as the Queen's Hand. Daenerys would still be pooping.

Bobonne
Wait, in the books, Sansa has a friend that got raped by the mob instead of her?

Because I heard that she had another friend who was the one that actually got married to Ramsay and raped and horribly abused by him in the books, rather than what happened in the show.

So the only real difference is that in the books, Sansa has a lot of Ablative Rape Armor in the form of female friends, while in the show, she doesn't?

EvilHomer
Oh yeah, well there's that too. In the books, Sansa's other friend, Jeyne Poole, gets married to Ramsay. Rather than send Sansa to Winterfell, Littlefinger decides to keep her around for his own personal amusement, so Roose and Ramsay, being sneaky bastards, decide to lie and say that they've finally found Sansa's long-lost sister, Arya (whom everyone assumes is dead). Ramsay marries "Arya" (actually Sansa's BFF, Jeyne the steward's daughter), and everyone in the castle just sort of goes along with it, because they don't want to have their skin peeled off.

It's a kind of Anastasia story, only in this one, Anastasia gets raped.

So yeah, basically what you said, Bobonne. In the books, Sansa's got a gaggle of friends whom she periodically kicks to the wolves, to get raped in her place.

EvilHomer
That's one of the reasons why Arya is my favorite character. People have periodically considered raping her, too, but instead of using her friends as shark-chum, Arya flat-out stabs her would-be Bill Cosbys in the fucking face.

Valar raepis. Valar morghulis.

Hooker
I can't stand Arya because nothing important ever happens to her at all. Her stories are completely about her and have no connection to the wider narrative of the books. It's so blatantly obvious that she's being groomed by Martin to be the Ned's murderous avenger. So obvious, in fact, that it in-turn becomes obvious that she's going to be killed and left for dead in some gutter before ever doing anything important to the story. Which makes it maddening reading her chapters, because you're reading with the knowledge that none of what you're reading matters at all.

Hooker
Dressed like that, she was basically asking for it.
Nikon
This was not as shocking or gratuitous as it was made out to be. GoT is bad things happen to people - the series.

John Holmes Motherfucker
I stopped watching GOT because of the dick torture. It was not entertaining me. There were two sadistic castrations in one episode, and that was it for me. It must have been sweeps.
infinite zest
This might be as good a time as any to mention that of course there's a porno, which had the exact name I would've used: Game of Bones Winter is Coming. And that's another problem I have with GoT: a lot of the acting is just slightly above high production porn (like Pirates, Bob's Boners etc.) and people sort of watch the show for the tits and the dicks anyway, but it's HBO tits and dicks. I'm gonna do a test on someone with Game of Bones who likes Game of Thrones and see how long it takes her to figure out that it's not some episode she missed.
Bisekrankas
I think you mean dick, they have ony shown one dick, Hodors, which was a prostetic since the actor is not as well endowed as the scene demanded, its the one where the wildling lady remarks on how big it is.

infinite zest
Oh. Like I said I haven't seen a ton of episodes, but I did see the South Park parody of it, and that made it sound like it was pretty much a mandatory dick-shot per episode.

Also, I keep reading the title as Gordon Ramsey 'Rapes' Sansa Stark. Too much Master Chef I'm afraid..

Doomstein
Actually there's a full frontal dick-shot when the wine merchant/assassin who tried to kill Daenerys is being marched to his death tied to a horse. It flops about quite a bit as he's stumbling.

Sexy Duck Cop
PoETV Is Too Good For Popular Things, Part Eighty Billion
Nominal
Quit being a cunt.

Sexy Duck Cop
Also it's kind of "unsettling" how lotsmoreorcs put the word "rape" in "quotes."
That guy
the new lotsmoreorcs might not be the best

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